Last week a French resident was refused citizenship on the grounds that she was “insufficiently assimilated.” The woman, referred to in the Press as “Faiza M.,” is a Moroccan citizen but has lived in France since 2000 with her husband, a French citizen, and three children, all born in France. Although most articles on the subject quickly pointed to Faiza's wearing of the burqa (or, given that she was from Morocco, more likely of the niqaab), Thomas Kleine-Brockhoff of PostGlobal indicates that other factors, such as Faiza's refusal to show her face even to a female officer, and her statement that voting should be for men only, were involved.
Regardless, the incident has set a precedent and has stirred up the feelings of bloggers around the world. The Angry Arab remarks briefly on the story, explaining:
Social services reports said the burqa-wearing Faiza M lived in “total submission to her male relatives”. Faiza M said she has never challenged the fundamental values of France.
The story garnered quite a few comments; one in particular reads:
As far as that niqab business, why would a person who is going to live most of her life inside of a big sack want to live in a Western country? Why?
I have no respect for anyone who would think that a woman must walk around all day in a niqab of any kind. It is a human rights abuse. Human beings need sunlight and air. I sat on a beach in Syria and watched a father and his sons frolic in the wonderful sunlight and cool water on a very hot day. On the beach, in the sand, completely covered by those monstrous niqabs, were the mother and daughters! How could any decent human being, let alone a decent father, allow only one part of his family to enjoy the beauty and the coolness of the sea? It made me physically ill to think about those poor girls and what they were learning about what it meant to be female. Why was it proper for the father and the boys to swim without shirts and in shorts? And I do not want to hear about it being ” a cultural thing” or that the woman freely chooses to live like that. If she has, she has been brainwashed. It is a disgusting abusive practice. If it is torture to hood prisoners, then it sure as hell is torture, whether willingly or unwillingly, to place yourself in a big sack and not see or feel the light of day.
Internation Musing (a group blog with writers in Turkey and Greece, among other places) also had a strong opinion about the case:
Their two children have the French nationality, she not. Appeal is not possible: bravo!
But in fact she is a ticking time bomb. And that's scary.
Nuseiba has a considerably different opinion:
This narrow interpretation I will write about in another post, however, right now, i’d like to focus on this woman who has been rejected for expressing a cultural and religious belief. I’d like to point out that I’m not much of a supporter of the burqa, because it is not sanctioned in Islam and women who do wear it do so unnecessarily. However I do support a woman’s right to wear one–whether for cultural or religious reasons.
The blogger concludes:
As I pointed out earlier, the notion of laicite, which this ruling was premised on, cannot apply in equal fashion to all citizens of France today because there are many who belong to the Islamic faith, who wear burqas, hijabs, turbans, yalmulkes etc, who have different cultural practices that cannot only be expressed in private (which is how the French understand religion to be). So what we’re seeing is a clash of values, a France imposing its normative understandings of equality and justice on individuals who see it nothing more than an unjust coercive act of the state.
Sabria Jawhar, writing for Arabisto, argues against the ruling as well, stating:
Here’s what French government representative Emmanuelle Prada-Bordenave said about Mabchour: “From her own declarations she lives an almost reclusive life, cut off from French society.
She has no idea of secularism or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to the men in her family. She appears to find that normal.”
Normal?Excuse me. But who is Prada-Bordenave to say what is normal? Normal by Western standards? Must Mabchour completely conform in every respect to France’s cultural values to be a French citizen?
Speaking French alone is a sign of assimilation into French society. Mabchour even has a male gynecologist, a fact that most Muslim women would find extremely difficult to face. That is considerable assimilation.I don’t know whether Mabchour is submissive. Perhaps by her own standards she has a fair and equitable marriage. I frankly think that is her business.
Creative Commons-licensed photo by janjochemo
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She needs to contribute to the conversation that is France and she isn’t even aware a conversation is taking place. Bravo France.
[...] Korean, and a German all weighed in, all with different opinions. I covered it yesterday for Global Voices as well, quoting several Arab-Americans, as well as a white American, and someone of unknown [...]
[...] puedes suscribirte para que te llegue por correo electronico o por feed RSS . Gracias por visitarme!Arabeyes: Moroccan woman refused French citizenship for burqa: para aquellos interesados en las relaciones entre identidad nacional y migración, un caso [...]
I think our country should do the same as France and not let any muslims enter our country. They hate everything about a free society anyways. I am glad that france is doing this maybe they have grown a spine..
“Turns out, these claims could not be further from the truth. An interview with her has revealed quite a bit about her. She does not wear the burqa because her husband has told her to. “They say I wear the niqab because my husband told me so. I want to tell them” she said. “ It is my choice. I take care of my children and I leave the house when I please. I have my own car. I do the shopping on my own. Yes, I am a practicing Muslim, I am orthodox. But is that not my right?”
As I said in my last comment this is a free society we have no rules on what we must wear or what our women can wear and do. So,you guys just wont like it here. You will be surrounded by infidels, yuck!Oh by the way I have three sons that have been brought up the way I have seen muslims bringing there children up. But one difference, they are after muslims because they are the true infidels. I guess you learn from others? And to be totally honest it kinda freaks me out when I go to the mall or somewhere and see these women wrapped up like bank robbers. They cannot be comfortable in America with all this christian evil around them?????????
Thanks Nuseiba - I wrote a pretty lengthy post about it on my own blog, post-interview reading.
Christian Solider - do you actually believe that most Muslims think that way? Most do not. Christians are people of the book, not “infidels.” Give me a break. The vast majority of Muslims are tolerant of pretty much everyone else. You’re speaking of a tiny minority, which probably does NOT include Ms. Silmi.
Sorry Lisa, I thought I responded to this earlier: “She needs to contribute to the conversation that is France”
I don’t see France as a conversation. Have Muslims (and other religious people wishing to wear religious symbols - I say Muslims first only because they are most prominent in the debate) truly been given the opportunity to participate in the conversation about whether or not to allow religious symbols in schools?
Quote: “The vast majority of Muslims are tolerant of pretty much everyone else.” No, no, no. The vast majority of Muslims consent to the hate and discrimination practiced against non-Muslims. Have any of the dozens of apostasy laws been repealed in Islamic countries? Is there freedom of religion? Please think before you right silly statements.
Jillian, understand that some of us “infidels” like the term “infidel.”. What ever islam believes, we reject. If faith is what Islam is then we want something else, anything else.
Do you think that being “People of the book” is an honor? Do you know what it means to be a dhimmi? Ask the copts! Have you read the references to Christians and Jews in the Quran? Where are a few nice things but 80% of referneces are negative and vile. Do you think we are lower than animals because we don’t believe (that is from al-anfal, the spoils of war, book 8, the quran), (Do you think the “people of the book” like being third class cistizens? (after women, the second-class). Do you think Muslims have a right to torture and mutilate us if we speak out against Islam? ( Al-maeda, the table, book 5 verse 33). If we were not “people of the book,” just plain vanilla pagans, the Quran says to slaughter us (but only to subdue the “people of the book”). Is this OK with you? Anything wrong here?
And then there are the ahadith. Has any Muslim actually read them and Islam’s early works? Do the hate and violence bother Muslims? Do they have anything to say about the raids, murders, conquest, plunder, torture, enslavement and rapes? I have never seen a Muslim condemn any of this.
Either Muslims don’t know the Quran and hadith or they do know and are deceitful. Take your pick.
Back to the case of the woman… She has no place in the West. Muslim values are not Western values. Notice how Muslims want to end our freedoms because things we say offend them, yet the vile things Muslims do don’t seem to bother them much — and neither does the hate and violence in the Quran and hadith.
The burka is just one more element in the misogenistic war against women (along with polygamy, fgm, harassment, honor killings, child marriage, forced marriage,etc…). Not that the burka “protects” women as seen in this GVO posting
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/07/22/mourning-a-sexually-harassed-egypt/
Ask yourself why? Think, for a change! Why the harassment? Could it be the culture? the religion?
Jillian, bad times are coming and I blame Islam. Muslims are not honest about their religion and so they cannot change it. Instead they blame everybody and everything else. We need people to be honest about Islam and tell Muslims the things they don’t want to hear (and wont hear from the media, schools and government). I am pessimistic.
Kactuz
.. KOran and . is
@ jay - I am so saddened by your comment, honestly.
I do recognize that you are right about the governments of several Muslim countries, first of all, and I should state right off that I disagree with those laws.
That said, your comments like “I have never seen a Muslim condemn any of this” (I have) and “She has no place in the West” just sicken and sadden me. Intolerance like yours has no place here.
you must be sad all the time in your religion? That is all you ever say, open your heart and mind to the teachings of the holy bible and read it. You will see love and support and forgiveness to your brothers in all the writings of the Holy Bible.You will not see torture or beheading just because they dont believe. Trust me when I say this I have read the Quran several times, and I do understand your religion and it troubles me heavily. If you are happy with this so be it. These other countries you mentioned are led by high priest or whatever names you guys have for them.They follow the quran?
All this burqa stuff is just a bunch of nonsense if you ask me. I think it’s inhumane, it’s demeaning to women, it represents an extreme religious/political ideology which is destructive to the freedom of the human spirit, it’s a newer practice invented in some backward oppressive hell hole and Islam strictly forbids religious innovation, the list goes on…..but still regardless of what we think, in a free society such as the one France claims to be, an individual is supposedly guaranteed freedom of expression regardless of their ethnic, religious or political background….their decision to refuse this woman the French citizenship is pure hypocrisy and double standards beyond reasonable doubt, especially considering that the rest of her family members who share the same lifestyle are already French citizens. What kind of message does this send to those who are already French citizens(indigenous or naturalized) who publicly do wear burqas or any other religious garb? Does this mean their religious lifestyles aren’t welcome in French society either?
Here is another little story for you.
My sister works at branch of city hall in Amsterdam and part of her duties is performing marriages. A few months ago she told me she had to marry a Dutch-Moroccan couple and the whole ceremony was totally bizarre. The bride and groom were in their early twenties, they were both born in Holland. The bride was wearing a burqa and the groom had a long beard and wore a 3baya. The bride’s sister was the only other person present, for the sole purpose of giving her sister away. She stood between the bride and groom while the marriage ceremony was being performed. In the end when they were pronounced husband and wife, to make it all official, the sister took the bride and groom’s hands and put them in each other’s hands without saying a word, after which they collected their marriage certificate and walked away hand in hand.
I said to my sister, now wait a minute, don’t they know that their marriage isn’t even considered legal in Islam? She said the whole thing was just too bizarre for words, I can’t even imagine what must be going through those people’s minds….I’m not even sure if their religious garb was even an indication of their own religious beliefs or some silly new trend they thought was cool and different.
Fact is there are too many things going on nowadays that have suddenly become religious custom in Islam…I just can’t keep up anymore, I blame it all on politics driving ignorance.
Christian soldier, I find you extremely judgemental and intolerent. As a Muslim myself I never turn down an opportunity to go to church when I’m invited by my Christian friends. I love going to Church, but the thing I don’t care for as much is all the additional manmade customs during the ceremony…I find them distracting from the purpose of going there to connect with God.
Finally someone I can talk to. I can take someone calling me intolerant because that is so me. I have tried all my life to respect others as they would respect me. I am sure the media has helped my intolerance but,I do work with a muslim and I have talked to him over the years about things in life other than theology or religion, and his mindset is not one that I can trust. He has shown me his true heart and it is scary. the way he talks is that all people are wrong in America just for the simple reason that they are not muslim. Our traditions in my family are to celebrate christ resurrection on Christmas day and I do read the bible and talk about his importance in all our lives as a saviour as Gods son. Omar will not even look at me on Christmas day he is so mad. Should one man working in an industry control everyone else just because he believes different, NO!In closing I dont think muslims realize that alot of Americans are very tired of seeing all the violence in the mideast and when all those muslim men that have families and children, KILL!! themselves and all the people on those planes and in those buildings on 9/11 I believe we have reched a point where there is no turning back. God forgive me but I will not accept any other discriminatory or racist remarks from him or any other muslim that has come here from another country. I will celebrate all victories against islam and I will be there for my country again and so will my three sons because they have learned as the islamic children have,that christ died on the cross for our sins and that anything else is an abomination!and they will beleaguer the muslims and lie in wait for them in every stratgem of the world because god is forgiving and will reward them.Funny? I didnt used to think this way .
Yea I hear ya Christian Soldier, I’m sure your heart is in the right place. You’re probably not a hater at all, maybe you’re just reacting out of fear, but perhaps if you stopped generalizing so much, you’ll notice that many of us Muslims hold the same position and take a firm stand against Muslim extremism and Islamic terror. If we were to work together instead of against each other our common enemy wouldn’t stand a chance. Bottom line is, take away politics, people will get along just fine.
Jillian,
Are you saying you have seen a Muslim condemn the many vile things described in the hadith and Quran? (I am talking about raids, plunder, enslavement of men women and children, murder of critics, toprture, rape and wife-beating). Please tell me where. Give me the name of the site. Please.
This not a question of “intolerance” - the only issue is if what I say is true or not. Am I lying? Am I making things up. To call me intolerant means nothing. Or is being “intolerant” of hate and violence a bad thing?
Here is a reference (link) for you to read:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4345
Tell me if you can find anything morally wrong in the passage? Did Abu Bakr (later one of the so-called “Righteous Caliph) and the “Messanger of Allah” act properly?
Your response is typical of that I get from Muslims. They don’t like to hear things that may cause them to think and make judgements. So, they have two courses of action, to silence the speaker or to suppress the words. The question of whether or not the words are true is not to be considered or researched.
This is why things never change, and why it will grow worse. All the so-called condemnations of terrorism mean nothing because those vile actions can be fully justified by the sacred words of the Quran and hadith. That is tragic, but true and so the terror never ends.
Enough for now. Here is another verse about terror for you to think about.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.220
Take care and think about these things…
Jay
Jay,
Yes, I have personally, in my lifetime, met plenty of Muslims who do not fully agree with hadiths. I cannot quote you a link, because I’m talking about conversations with humans (although Irshad Manji’s site might offer you some nice information - mind you, I don’t agree with everything she says, but she does confirm what I’m saying)
The problem is that you seem to assume that Islam and Muslims are the same thing. They’re not. While there are certainly plenty of Orthodox Muslims who take every word of the Qur’an and hadiths for granted, there are plenty others who do not. Either way, Muslims are humans, born into a particular religion. You don’t have to like their religion, but can’t you consider the fact that they are not one entity encompassing a single belief?
For the record, I’m not Muslim and I don’t particularly care for much of Islam’s beliefs. But that doesn’t mean I won’t stand up for injustice where I see it.
Jillian
Myrtus,
in a way your right about me. At the same time there is a consistent movement of all Americans toward fear and racism that I am afraid can and will not be stopped before alot of people get hurt or killed. I grew up thinking and admiring the discipline of muslims the way they worship and this was a respect I had. Perfect example and I know I have said this before, When I see several muslim women wrapped all the way up with nothing but there eyes showing it is very creepy and I cant get past this. Until the teachings of the quran are changed I am sure that christians will get even more violent and less tolerant. So when you are talking to your friends about the koran it might be time for another prophet to stand up and write a new testament to the quran to keep the muslim community from going extinct…….
Christian Soldier, frankly my dear we’ve had enough prophets telling us what to do….don’t you think? :D
It is time we, the people, start using our common sense and stick it to corrupted POLITICIANS, because that’s the root of all the widespread evil we are witnessing today on our TV screens, our newspapers and our streets.
There are more than 500 instances mentioned in the Bible where violence is condoned, including stoning to death in case of apostasy and there is plenty of violence committed in the name of Christianity on a daily basis yet Christians will deny this ever happens because we’re not bombarded with it on mainstream media as is done with Islam related issues.
I recently attended a confirmation ceremony at a Catholic Church….all in all the service just beautiful! In the end I walked away thinking my experience wouldn’t have been nearly as enriching had the priest not told the story of Saint Stephen the Martyr. At one point I thought to myself, what a gruesomely violent and depressing tale to share with a bunch of young kids who are already plenty scared and excited with all the new things they’re having to experience as they’re getting ready to enter adulthood. I just hope that in these delicate times we live in, the message they got out of it was a positive one and not that it’s OK to just go ahead and martyr themselves in the name of religion. But knowing the short attention span kids have nowadays, they probably forgot all about it the next day…at least I hope so. ;D
I say there is no reason we shouldn’t be able to get along.
Cheers!
Najia
[...] week, Global Voices covered the story of Faiza Silmi, the Moroccan woman denied French citizenship for her beliefs and actions [...]
Myrtus,
I do not deny that there is an extreme amount of arabic men along with there families being destroyed over in the mid east and this troubles me because of the children that are not of age to learn this rage or mistrust or whatever it is that these fanatics have against us. I do believe you are mistaken on the media? All I see on the tv is death and destruction in Iraq and Afghanistan and all the arabic men being killed. I do know, there will never be piece in Iraq if we leave because the warlords will take back over in the name of Allah and get right back to the clan mentality that has run this area for thousands of years. I feel for the christians that live in Iraq. God bless them and protect them.
Man of the book
Jillian.
Standing up for justice — and equality — and freedom of speech and religion — is absolutely necessary if we are going to live together on this planet. No exceptions. Speaking out against an ideology — any ideology — or in this case, Islam — must be based on these concepts.
I appreciate your position and I am aware that there are all kinds, colours and types of Muslims, with many sects and different interpretations. I am also aware that they all share certain basic beliefs, and some of these beliefs are contrary to the basic concepts mentioned above. First of all I do not consider Muslims in Western societies to be credible voices for the ‘real’ islam. They are a minority and do not have great political power. I take what happens in those countries where Muslims dominate as the standard against which I will judge Islam — that and Islam’s doctrines.
It is not just the ahadith the are problematic. For example, consider just one very troubling aspect of the Quran. A person would have to be blind not to notice that the Quran is full of special cases and exceptions –privileges granted by Allah to Mohammad only, through Mohammad only, to benefit Mohammad only, of course. Why don’t Muslims consider it suspicious that a book that was supposed to exist from all eternity has so many little rules to benefit a single person.
Among the special exceptions (in the Quran) for Mohammad are: to cut, burn and destroy orchards and fields (59:5), to attack and burn mosques and kill Muslims (9:107, 110), permission to marry for than 4 women (”this only for thee, and not for the believers” - 33:50), to put away wives (33:51), to violate the sanctity of the sacred month Rajan (which from immemorial antiquity in Arabia had been consecrated to peace) and attack infidels (Sura 2). It gets worse: by special permission captives were executed (Sura 47, 48). In another verse (8:67) Mohhammad says he must kill captives (make slaughter in the land) to prove he is a prophet. He also has permission (8:12) to inflict barbaric torture and kill his enemies (”execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land”). The Quran also gives M permission to not keep his word of honor, if it interferes with anything bringing pleasure (O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Allah has already ordained for you, the dissolution of your oaths.” -Surah 66). To control his wives, Allah also came through with a few more special rules for them: authorization to marry his daughter-in-law (33:37), to replace all his wives if they complain, as in the case when he was found with his concubine Maria the Copt in the bed of his wife Hafsa (66:3-5), or to prevent his wives from using adornments and receiving a greater allowance (33:28), to cover themselves (33:32, 59), to receive double punishment if they did wrong (33:30), and not marry again (33:53) and even to acquit his favorite wife (Aisha) of slander (24:1-22).
Rather than have an infinite number of exceptions for Muhammad, announced by Mohammud to benefit Mohammad, Allah finally resolved this issue by declaring a blank check for all sins: “There is no fault in the Prophet in what Allâh has decreed for him” (Quran 33:37). So, whatever the Prophet does is OK because he is special and the rules of conduct demanded of others don’t apply to him, because Allah made him do it.
Mohammad explained that he often receive special instructions from night to night and even changed them (”We substitute one revelation for another” - 2:106,108 - We? Plural? Allah is plural?). These divine interventions to satisfy Muhammad’s sexual and marital issues were so blatant that Aisha even snickered that “It seems to me that your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire”
It goes on and on… Mohammad gets 20% of all plunder from jihad (“And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire, a fifth share is assigned to Allah and to the Messenger” 8:41). It is doubtful that Allah ever showed up at Mohammad’s door to claim his share of the booty, so we can assume that the Prophet got 20% of the loot.
The use of the term “Allah and his Messenger” (“Obey Allah and His Messenger”; “believe in Allah and His Messenger”; “show your faith in Allah and His Messenger”; “an announcement from Allah and His Messenger”; etc…) is so frequent and blatant in the Quran that Mohammad can almost be understood to be a junior partner to Allah (“Verily those who swear allegiance to you Muhammad, indeed swear their allegiance to Allah” 48-10, “He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah” – 4:80). Hey, in Christian theology, wasn’t Lucifer’s sin the desire to be like “the most high”?
Jillian. No more theology. I spent many a long day reading the the Quran and hadith. Not impressed. The result is that just as any moderate Muslim cannot win and argument with me, so can they not win an argument with a radical. If a Muslims believes the Quran (they ALL do, moderate and radical), then they must recognize that that 1. infidels are lower than animals and 2. Muslims are to attack and subdue them. The text is very clear. Thus, the radicals have the Quran and hadeeth on their side. The only thing I don’t understand is how anybody can read these things without any uneasiness or distress.
I am old; you are young. What we are seeing is the unchecked growth of a barbaric ideology that seeks to reverse 500 years of progress. Islam wants to throw out the magna carta, the renaissance, reformation, counter reformation, the enlightenment, the bill of rights, the lessons of the French and American Revolution, the abolition of slavery, civil rights laws, the separation of church and state, the concepts of freedom of religion and speech, the emancipation of women, the idea of equality, and replace them with sharia and some fantasized version of the golden age of the Caliphs (which was marked by Muslims attacking and conquering infidels when they were not slaughtering each other in the riddah or apostasy wars. By the way, 3 of the 4 “Rightly Guided Caliphs were killed, two by Muslims for religious motives and one by a slave because a. his master took his earnings or b. because he was revolted by seeing children enslaved).
It will get worse. It is getting worse. I predict you will see the radicals grow stronger and stronger, as the moderates continue to make excuses and blame others. Our leaders will appease and then appease more again.
Is this hate or a stand on principles? It is my interpretation of events and Islamic doctrine. Nobody does anybody (including Muslims) a favor by not being honest. They may not like what I say but it is sincere and it seems to me that my understanding of things fits reality better than their beliefs (ie, Islam means peace but it is misunderstood and corrupted by a few bad people). I am not asking you to believe me. Just watch and study. Be skeptical. One thing is for sure, the future will be intriguing (as the Chinese say “may you live in interesting times”). It probably won’t be fun, but it will be interesting.
I apologize for the length of this post. I got carried away.
Jay
You take care and thank you for your work here at Global Voices. It is a great site and has an interesting range of topics and opinions from all over our small planet.
I can only hope that the world truly believes that the American people truly believed that sadam was a thug and killed thousands of muslims and that American soldiers took out this gangster for THEM. The iraqi people of course will forget this and start hating Americans as the French and the Germans have done so why even try right?As for the Quran I dont believe in my mind I can win a debate over such a well written book????so I wont even try.Goodbye Global voices and thanks for the interesting and futile conversation.
[...] Christian Soldier si mostra favorevole alla decisione del governo francese: Penso che il nostro Paese dovrebbe comportarsi come la Francia in questo caso e non lasciar entrare nessun musulmano. Loro rifiutano tutto ciò che caratterizza una società libera. Sono contento che la Francia abbia preso questa posizione, forse hanno imparato la lezione… [...]
I think the gov.would be condoning the slavery that is islam if it gives citizenship to the covered woman. A democracy is obout freedom . The spiritual slavery that is islam , and the physical slavery the women suffer are in opposition to democracy , liberty ,freedom and other sweet things of life. Islam is a bully, appease the bully and he becomes bolder.
“we could learn a lot from crayon, all are different colours, some have weird names, some are pretty,some are dull, but they all have to learn to live in the same box.”