Muslims are not trying to impose their way of life on Western culture, so much as they are trying perserve their way of life. Remember my reference to little Italy and Poland…those communities segregated themselves because they feared what American values would do to their culture. So why don’t Muslims have the same rights as Italians? You would have to criticize hold every ethnic community in the West who has a diaspora of their own. Those closed-knit communities preserve the culture. Islam is both a religion and a culture, and it is defined by their dress…there is nothing wrong with this.

Muslims move to the west for a variety of reasons. If they are refugees then they come here because that’s where the UNHRC told them to go to. Some move because their family is here, and others because they would rather live in the “evil” West than see another one of their children be used as a body-shield. Do not forget that they are going through a culture shock. If you have ever been overseas, you should be able to understand where they are coming from (if not, then, from someone who has been overseas, I can tell you that you instinctively try to hold on to every ounce of your culture; the country I went to didn’t even impose their way of life, but I was very afraid of losing my cultural identity–it’s natural). This isn’t about having their cake and eating too, it’s about cultural preservation and figuring out how to adapt to a place that is so diametrically opposed to the one they came from.

Like I said, I understand how you could see things the way you do, but try to look at it from this perspective. I do not condone any violence that spurs from any immigrant community, but I can understand the fierceness in which they are holding on to their culture.

Also, Christians do not have a formal “religious” wardrobe (for lack of a better term)unless they are clergymen and women, so you can’t really spot a Christian from a mile away like you could a Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, etc. I’m not contesting the policies, I’m just saying that Christians are really chameleon like over there. Egypt has Christian churches, so does Syria, Lebanon (they are not as singled out as it appears, and they can worship…there is a slight sense of religious cohesiveness); they blend in pretty well. Plus, those policies are from Muslim countries. It’s THEIR country, they can issue whatever they would like just like the West can. You’re basically saying that it’s okay for the West to force them to assimilate, but not okay for the Muslim world to do the same thing (at least that is my perception if I am wrong please clarify so I can avoid another misunderstanding please). Yes, we want the world to come together and be as one, but we have to deal with human nature and that often messes things up a bit now doesn’t it?

Let’s be clear first hijab and burqa are not interchangeable.
And I can’t be held responsible for your misconception about my moral positions. You can’t look at me and decide who I am and what I think. We’re human beings try talking to us before making those decisions for us.

“Your hijab offends me because it represents a religion that practices discrimination everywhere it dominates.”

Islam itself does not make women and men unequal. Men and women are both urged and encouraged to seek knowledge. If a countries laws make that more difficult for a woman that can’t be blamed on Islam.

I have no problems with the burqa if it’s what a woman chooses. Look I don’t agree that anyone can force a woman to wear it either. Personally I think if you have faith in god you should stand back and let god judge them. No human being should make those decisions for another because no human being can be held accountable for the actions of another.

And I said “If anyone has issues with how specific countries operate then understand it is that countries government that makes the laws and not the people. So imposing penalties on women abroad in order to stand against injustices across oceans is really counterproductive. It merely alienates and oppresses an entirely unrelated group. ”

That doesn’t mean that “taking a stand against injustice is counterproductive.”

It means a law in France or America taking away the right to wear hijab won’t make Iran change their laws about hijab. it’s counterproductive because it does exactly what it condemns takes away a woman’s freedom to dress as she chooses. I thought I was making myself clear but I guess not.

And lastly “Naeima, it is not your choice that is the problem, but your attitude and actions.”
You have never met me how in the world would you see yourself as fit to judge me and my beliefs.

Now I am worried about you. Agreeing with me may not be good for you. Or maybe it is that I am not used to it. Maybe I should be worried.

I really don’t see any chance of any consensus on these issues. They are too divisive and too many people have too much to gain by causing trouble and conflict. What is offensive to some is divine grace to others. Human nature is a very ugly thing.

What I am sure of (kinda) is that dialogue will not hurt, even if makes many people unhappy. The truth may not always prevail but it should be heard. If you have a position and believe in it you should be able to defend it. If you can’t, then you need to reexamine your position. Anyway, words are better than swords or bombs.

Take care.

Kactuz

PS: Have seen quail but not little ones. Did thy survive? Don’t know.

Naeima, it is not your choice that is the problem, but your attitude and actions. Personally I don’t care if a woman uses a bikini or burka, or even if she wears a blanket over the burqa. In fact, the burqa sends a very clear message about your moral position on issues such as freedom and equality, right and wrong, truth and deception.

I do care that you defend the burqa but refuse even to mention the women that must use it against their will . You are offended by the idea that a Western government might institute a dress code but have no problem when dozens of Islamic countries impose their codes. You blame it on the “countries” and “governments” as if the people of those countries and Islam had nothing to do with this situation. You have one set of standards for Western societies and another for Muslim countries. You talk about our rights, dignity and religious convictions, but seem to think that these apply only to certain people.

Let me answer your question plainly: Your hijab offends me because it represents a religion that practices discrimination everywhere it dominates.
The burka and veil do not exist by themselves, but are part of a larger context that means oppression, sharia, apostasy laws, discrimination against minorities, fgm, forced marriage, honor killings, lack of human rights. Note that in your own words you said that taking a stand against injustice is counterproductive. oh? Why?

Your attitude gives support and confort to those vile people that force women to wear hajib and burka against their will.

As the laws apply to teachers as well, there was a specific case in that region where a nun was allowed to teach in a public school while wearing a habit for “historic reasons,” while education minister Annette Schavan has argued specifically against Muslim women, stating that headscarves are “understood as a symbol of the exclusion of woman from civil and cultural society.

My comment stands – German laws are entirely biased against Muslims.