Bobby, if you fail to see Azeris that take “truth above everything”, maybe it is because you are not willing to challange the “truth” you know? It is not an easy thing to do. And i am still struggling with it, but the more I educate myself while tryign to maintain an open mind the more objectivity (or third party point of view) I gain about this conflict.

Babby, do you really, think that there were no wrong doing on Armenian side against Azerbaijan? Are you that naive to think that pogroms in Azerbaijan and Operaciya Kolco in Azerbaijan were only acts of violance against civilians? Do you believe that there we re no hate crimes against Azeris? And the 100,000s displaced and refugies from Azerbaijan left their home slow and comfortably, while the Armenian population of Azerbaijan was just beaten all the way to the border? Really?

I never said I wasn’t sad about destroyed Shushi, just as I am sad for killed Turkish diplomats or displaced Azeri population from the security belt around Karabakh. And I never said Armenians are the only victim of this conflict. That’s not my point.

Let me try one more time. In each “dispute” there are not two, but three extremes. First two are “black & white” perspectives from each of the sides. Here everything is clear – we are victims, they are villains. But there is also the “third extreme”, which is sth. like monotonic “dull gray”. That extreme pursues “objectivity” by painting both sides in one color (“the same shit” kind of approach). Now, it’s assumed for some reason that the “third extreme” is *by definition* always closer to the truth than the first two, which I claim is *not* true. There are many, many examples (starting from Armenian Genocide, Holocaust, Nazis to more recent examples such as Yugoslavia events). So all I am saying is that – despite the book having tons of original and unique information, by pursuing the “third extreme” it may further obfuscate the true picture and the real nature of the conflict.

Call me a nationalist, chauvinist, or whatever but I still firmly hold a position (which I am ready to defend with *facts*) that in Karabakh conflict Armenians are “whiter” than Azeris, and as a consequence “third extreme” approach (pursued by TdW book) is far more damaging for the Armenian side than the Azeri (and despite “some” on Azeri side protesting the book).

R.

I don’t think any wars or ethnic conflicts are. While Armenians and Azerbaijanis have lived together longer in peace, and continue to do so in Russia or Georgia, there are enough cases of expulsions, massacres on both sides which means that depending on how far you take it back, history can be used selectively.

Anyway, my point is this. Armenians and Azerbaijanis like to push the idea that they are the only ones who suffered losses. Actually, both sides did. To what extent, that’s another matter, but I stand by my initial comment which is that both sides will always have an excuse.

“What they did was wrong, what we did was right, or we didn’t do it at all,” kind of thing. Meanwhile, just as Emil admits he was saddened by the loss of Djulfa and the lack of concern by the Azerbaijani media, I am also saddened by the destruction of Shushi.

Anyway, this is now starting to turn into a discussion on the war itself and the origins of the people living in the region. This is when everything gets too nationalistic for me and so I’m out of this conversation and moving on to other things.

However, I will commend everyone from keeping the discussion civil. That’s what we need more than anything else. It’s also what we actually need the media in both sides to do as well. That’s the only way we can perhaps find a solution to everything. Meanwhile, about your point on building materials.

True in the case of Aghdam, not true in the case of every other village and town in the territories surrounding Karabakh under Armenian control. This was the razing of towns and villages to prevent ethnic Azeris and Kurds from returning.

Back to Tom’s book and I’ve already told you that there are one or two parts (i.e. paragraphs or sentences) I didn’t like. You mention one, but one sentence is not enough to devalue an entire book. Indeed, one of the most relevant parts of Tom’s book looks at the nationalist aims of historians in both countries.

Indeed, they’re not historians, and distort and subjectively deal with history with nationalist goals in mind. Everyone wants to be seen as the innocent victim, but it’s not as simple as that. And again, you either decry the destruction of cultural monuments and massacres or deportation of civilians, or you don’t.

Interesting story – I actually did some research myself – on wikipedia (where else?) there’s tons of info on Caucasian Albanians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania

and their alphabet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albanian_alphabet

It has an interesting introduction:
“During the ancient and medieval eras the Caucasian Albanians were assimilated and played a role in the ethnogenesis of the Azerbaijanis, the Armenians of the Nagorno-Karabagh, the Georgians of Kakhetia and the Laks, the Lezgins and the Tsakhurs of Daghestan.”

I know Azeri scientists claim that today’s Azeris are direct descendants (not just “played a role in the ethnogenesis”) of Albanians. Do you know if it’s being corroborated by credible independent Western scientists? BTW, does Azeri language resemble Udi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udi_language)?

As to Karabakh population’s national affinity, and the origin of the Christian monuments on the Karabakh territory… I am not a historian, all I can say is – I saw two most beautiful khachkars I had ever seen in my life in Karabakh ( I wish you could see yourself!), and XIIIth century Gandzasar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandzasar) which served as the HQ of Armenian church for centuries is also as Armenian as it gets. What can I say… even Thomas de Waal (in the book we talked so much about already) – despite his sincere urge to “balance everything with everything” – couldn’t find a credible source in independent Western scientific community which would support the Christian Albanian theory, and (I can almost imagine the pain he went through) had to write in his book that Karabakh meliks “considered themselves Armenian” (too lazy to find the exact quote in the book, but if you are interested, I can do that for you).

In any case, sometimes (e.g. when I read a “scientific research” of yet another Azeri academician) I feel Armenians are being a victim of some “grand identity theft”, and the history is used as a political leverage to finally squeeze us out of the region, and appropriate our history and culture. I wish it wasn’t true…

R.

Thanks for the links.

I have one straightforward question for you. I’ve read many times – in Azeri newspapers, or “scientific researches”, that the ancient Christian churches in Karabakh are not, in fact, Armenian, but Albanian. And that the Armenian inscriptions were added to them later on (in XIX-XX century). What’s your opinion on this?

And, naturally, your questions are welcome, too.

R.

I wonder – did you actually read the comments to the book? Did you actually tried to get the points? Or you dismissed them from the start as “narrow-minded Armenian nationalism”?…

I agree – all facts (regardless if someone likes it or not) are to be presented, however, “forced balancing” them does little to present the true picture. I always wonder how the truth is getting obfuscated in “on the other hand” methodology. “Turkish republic supports Azerbaijan, but on the other hand Russia supports Armenia” (huh? can ANYBODY in his right mind compare the significance, scale and persistence of two pairs of relationships?). “Ottoman Turks killed 1.5 mln. of their own citizens – Armenians – and deprived Armenians from their homeland of 4 thousands of years, but on the other hand Armenian terrorists (damn them!) killed 120 Turkish diplomats in 70-ies”. And so on… the truth is – the situation is far from being symmetrical, and if Turks/Azeris threaten our existence, we do not threaten theirs. Do you think Sakharov was a narrow-minded Armenian nationalist, too, when he said “Karabakh is a matter on honor for Azris, but a matter of survival for Armenians”? Or he lacked the deep insight, or the high moral ground you and Tom share? (sorry for being sarcastic)

Being criticized from both sides doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a “good book”, or that it presents an objective picture. Imagine I write a book about Holocaust where I state that not 6, but 1 mln Jews were killed by Nazis. I’d, of course, come under fire from both Jews and Ahmadinejad. Would that mean I did a good job?

Now, “there’s some speculation” is one of the favorite ways of spreading disinformation – used even by allegedly reputable news channels. If you think scores of civilians being killed every day from Grad shelling is not a good reason in itself, I am afraid I can’t help you here. And no, I don’t accept your point about Jugha maybe being destroyed because Azeirs didn’t have building materials, moreover I consider it as an insult and highly immoral statement… which is below any further criticism.

Please try to understand me, this type of “relativism” is extremely destructive – and destructive (for the above reasons of inherent inequality b/w the sides) for Armenian side first/most of all.

R.

PS. “largest Home Depot in the Caucasus” – the author was Carey Cavanaugh – ex-US rep to Minsk Group.

PS2. Destruction of the medieval cemetery in Nachichevan (which incidentally was never involved in the war, and the cemetery was never used as a firepoint to shell Azeri villages) there was lots of fuss about sending an international commission to the region to inspect “both sides”. To the best of my knowledge, Armenian side was VERY supportive of the initiative, but it nevertheless never happened.. Do you have any independent information why?

here are some fotos od Shusha

http://www.load.az/maraqli_resmler/3487-shushanin-son-veziyyeti.html

Cultural monuments dont have to locate in big cities.Even little village can contain many monuments.The whole list of monuments are in European Council.I dont know about Armenia but Azerbaijan presented 1890.I can give the links bu they are in Azeri so you guys will not understand them.I want to keep this discussion only about monuments and dont want to turn it into another forum where Azerbaijanis and Armenians accuse each other passionately for the right to Karabagh,who started first,killed more.If you guys want ask me about the state of Armenian monuments in Azerbaijan i would be glad to investigate.I feel sad about Djulfa cemetry i havent heard about it in Azeri media as well as you havent heard the reverse.I know Armenians lived in Djulfa.They were invited by Iranian king and moved to settle new district there(correct me if im wrong)

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0013/001386/138645e.pdf

second here are some fotos of the monuments in Shusha

http://www.load.az/maraqli_resmler/3487-shushanin-son-veziyyeti.html

Cultural monuments dont have to locate in big cities.Even small village can contain lots of monuments.
I used the word destructed for not only removing all but destructed also mean to take everything from the building leaving the stones.Not all the monuments were destructed purposefully on both sides but lack of information about international rules and perhaps using those for some other reasons like military, business, construction.And also i dont want to turn this discussion to another forum where Azerbaijanians and Armenians accuse each other passionatley on right to posses Karabagh or who started first,who killed more.I want to keep this discussion only about cultural monuments.the whole list of monuments are in European Council.I dont know how many Armenia presented but Azerbaijan presented 1890 monuments to be possesed before the war.i have links by districts but there are only in Azeri so you guys will not understand it.But if you want to ask me about the situation of Armenian monuments in Azerbaijan i would be glad to check them.im not in Azerbaijan now but i can ask my friends to check.i felt really bad when i heard about the destruction of Djulfa.Its pity but i cant hear that kind of information in Azeri media as well as you guys dont hear about the reverse.i dont doubt that Armenians lived in Djulfa before.They moved to Iran 1601 by the invitation of Iranian king to settle a new district there.(correct me if im wrong)

Maybe someone wanted the stone in Nakhichevan for their own construction project, right? Maybe not, but you get my point. Besides, as many who fought in the war will tell you, they razed the villages and towns to prevent the population from returning just as they did in Bosnia. Agreed, however, Aghdam was different. Much was destroyed after it was taken before it quickly became, as someone said, the “largest Home Depot in the Caucasus.”

Anyway, I think you can’t justify or rationalize one case of destruction when it’s “your side” that did it and then condemn the other. As Terry Davis said, both are concerning. Of course, there is the issue of who might have done more, but that’s an issue for an independent study and report.

As for Tom’s book, I often joke with him about criticism from BOTH sides that it’s “too objective.” Indeed, just as those critical reviews you link to were subjective and from Armenians, he has his detractors in Azerbaijan too. Perhaps that’s the sign of a very good book when neither side really likes it, but can’t criticize it as much as the want.

There are one or two points in the book I’m unhappy with, and have raised them with Tom, but ultimately, the book as a whole is an excellent resource. Incidentally, Mher Gabrielyan gave the reason for the burning and destruction of Shushi after it was taken was jealousy. Regardless, it was a cultural center and what happened was regrettable.

Yes, as a military target it was one of the main objectives to prevent the GRADs from hitting Stepanakert. However, somewhat interestingly, there’s some speculation that Shushi was taken to derail peace talks in Tehran. Anyway, I kind of don’t like decrying cultural destruction on one side and then justifying it when done by another.

It’s either part and parcel of armed conflict by both sides, or it’s not. Of course, all countries are guilty of taking subjective and conflicting positions when it is their soldiers or populations that are involved. Regardless, I would like to see that CE group visit the region and report on the extent of damage on both sides.

You got me wrong – I actually think TdW’s book is one of the best in this subject – in terms of the original information put there and the amount of work done by the author (and believe me, you don’t need to explain me what was the point here and there). So there was no way for him to avoid the topics of Koltso or Sumgait without losing the credibility altogether.

However, what I am having trouble accepting (but perhaps no problem understanding the motives) is the “forced balancing” of facts. In fact, many other readers had this same impression – and they describe the “phenomena” far better than I do – for example see the first 3 reviews on
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0814719457/ref=dp_db_cm_cr_acr_txt?_encoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Carefully read these and hopefully you’ll get my point.

I must confess – it’s the first time I am learning about “two other mosques” Armenians destroyed after capturing Shushi. One question I had – since the “third one” was spared because it had Persian” on it, were the other two inscribed in… Cyrillic? Just asking…

Now, and if Armenians did destroy mosques – I am deeply ashamed – but like in TdW’s case – I can understand the rage of Stepanakerts against Azeris bombarding the *civilian* population in *town* for weeks (I wonder, is it something our Azeri friends would disavow?). As to Azeris ex-houses… Onnik, at least *you* who has been to Karabakh should know – most of it was done to retrieve the desperately needed building material to restore Armenian houses, schools, hospitals razed by Azeri fire. Somehow, Home Depot hasn’t opened a branch in Karabakh yet, so you do what you have to do…

R.