Egyptian blogger and activist Wael Abbas just announced on his blog that he turned down an invitation to meet up with Bush.
Here's what Abbas wrote:
بوش مش رئيس جمهورية بلدي ولا ولي أمري ولا ولي امر العالم كما هو متخيل. بوش مش رمز لأي حاجة كويسة أصلا علشان حد يتشرف أو يتكرم بمقابلته. مقابلة بوش تلطخ أي شريف وليست تشريف أو تكريم. انا مالياش حاجة عند بوش ولا طالب منه حاجة ولا في ايده اي حاجة ليا وحتى لو في ايده انا مش عايزها وانا اصلا ضد فكرة اي تدخل امريكي في مصر لا بالخير ولا بالشر - انا عايزه يكف اذاه بس ويبطل مساعدة ومساندة النظام المصري. سيبكم من غزو العراق والبلاوي الكتير التانية اللي بوش عملها في العالم كله انا كفاية عليا ان بوش يقول مبارك رجل سلام. انا لم ارفض هذه الدعوة لخوفي من الانتقاد او بمعنى اصح الشرشحة بتاعة بعض التيارات السياسية لان بصراحة احنا في مصر لا عندنا تيارات سياسية ولا بطيخ من بابه ولان ببساطة كمان هاقابل بوش بتاع ايه مش علشان انا قليل لا بالعكس علشان بوش ده ايه اصلا بوش مش نلسون مانديلا ولا غاندي ولا الام تريزا الله يرحمها ولا حتى بانكي مون اللي زي قلته
انا الصراحة لو كانت جات لي دعوة لمقابلة اوباما - ومحدش يزعل مني - كنت ها ارحب جدا على الاقل الحق قبل ما اوباما يمسك ويوسخ الدنيا وتبتدي الناس تنتقده ببساطة لاني ها اقابل رمز تاريخي للتغيير في امريكا ورمز لرئيس دولة منتخب ديمقراطيا بجد والناس بتحبه وعندها امل فيه وده نموذج نتمنى نشوفه في كل دول العالم بداية بمصر وممكن كمان اتجرا واقول ان انتخاب اوباما من اهم الاشياء منذ حركة الحقوق المدنية للسود ورموزها زي مارتن لوثر كينج ومالكوم اكس
لكن بوش ده رمز لإيه؟ انا باشتغل على الحريات السياسية والفردية وعلى مقاومة القمع والعنف والديكتاتورية بوش بيرمز لإيه في اللي باشتغل عليه؟
الادارة الامريكية القديمة للاسف عارفة انها رايحة وبتشتغل بمبدأ يا رايح كتر من الفضايح وبتعمل انها بتكرم عدد من المناضلين في حين انها في الحقيقة بتلوثهم وعايزة تنسب الفضل في نضالهم ونجاحهم لنفسها قبل ما تمشي. أنا باحب الشعب الأمريكي والشعب الأمريكي هو اللي بيحتضني ويكرمني وليست الإدارة الأمريكية
وربما أمريكا ليست النموذج الامثل في حرية الصحافة ولا الاحزاب السياسية
لكن تجربة المجتمع المدني الامريكية جديرة بالاهتمام
Bush is neither my president nor my father; he is not the world's legal guardian as he would like to imagine. Bush is not a symbol of anything honorable to honor anyone who meets him; Meeting Bush would tarnish an honest man's reputation - it is by far nothing worthy of pride. I owe Bush nothing and he owes me nothing and even if he has something that I might want, I no longer want it. I am inherently against any American involvement in the Egyptian business be it good or bad. I just want him to hold his peace and stop supporting the Egyptian regime. Put the Iraqi invasion aside with all the other worldwide disasters that Bush brought on the world, it is more than enough for me that Bush calls president Mubarak “a man of peace”.
I did not reject the invitation for fear of criticism and live skinning of some political parties in Egypt because I can safely assume that we do not have anything even close to political parties in Egypt. Simply why would I be interested in meeting a person like Bush - he is not a Nelson Mandela or a Gandhi or a Mother Teresa -may she rest in peace.
Had this been an invitation to meet Obama - no offense - I would have gladly accepted it. At least I would have had the pleasure of meeting the man before he assumes office and dirties his hands. Now people love him and I would have liked to meet him when people still love him. I would have had the honor of meeting the icon of change in American history. He is the symbol of a truly democratically elected president. This is the model that we would like to see all over the world, starting with Egypt. I might even have the audacity to say that Obama's victory is a new landmark since the African American civil rights movement and its symbols - namely Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. But who is this Bush and what does he represent? I serve the causes of political and individual freedom and fighting oppression, violence, and dictatorship so how does Bush serve my cause?
The old American cabinet knows that they are on their way out so they decided to create havoc on their way out. They also decided to honor some activists when in fact by doing so America is disgracing them. They want to take credit for their strife and success before its fifteen minutes of fame are over. I love Americans as people and every time I visit America, it is because the Americans are supportive of me and my cause…. Maybe America is not the ideal solution for freedom of press and political parties but still it's civil society is an interesting experience to study and analyze.
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Very sincere and enlightning; thanks.
This is an extremely delicate situation many true democratic movements find themselves in Arab world. Their options have been extremely limited during this last decade. They could not align themselves with any political movement be it at home or abroad as the choices are extremely limited. Either to join forces with their arch enemies the Islamists, or open some type of dialogue with the totalitarian regimes that govern most Arab countries and most of them seem to be the allies of the west ( At least according to the official position of most western government). They could not be seen to be too close to the American administration as they could be seen as agents of the west and Israel or puppets of the American oligarchy.
Also, The American administration really has never had any interested in the democratisation of the Arab regimes as they are more interested in protecting “Their National Interest” in the region. Being a democrat in the Arab world is an extremely lonely affair and without any friends.
مش عارف ح نبطل شغل الخيابة ده، من الاخر يعني، امتى؟؟
الاستاذ وائل عباس رفض مقابلة الرئيس بوش، والله ماشي، الرئيس بوش ما اعلنش عن سبب المقابلة، بس الاستاذ وائل تكرم ووضح بنفسه اسباب الرفض، مع ان لا حد كان ح يسأله لو هو ما اعلنش ده بنفسه، وكمان قدم المسألة بغموض مريب وكأن بوش ح يتناقش معه في خطط الرؤوس النووية الاستراتيجية وجهود الولايات المتحدة للقبض على بن لادن والحياة على كوكب المريخ (مع ان الاستاذ وائل كان بيتمنى “يفرمه”.. شفت طيبة قلب الراجل بوش؟؟)، لكن ما علينا، بالآتي:
“انا عايزه يكف اذاه بس ويبطل مساعدة ومساندة النظام المصري
سيبكم من غزو العراق والبلاوي الكتير التانية اللي بوش عملها في العالم كله
انا كفاية عليا ان بوش يقول مبارك رجل سلام”
طبعا برضه مش ح نبطل شغل معلم الحارة ده، بافتراض ان المعلم بوش راجل مفتري ومايعرفش ربنا وياكل مال النبي وصياغة “ده انا كفاية عليا…”، بس لو مشي المعلم القديم ح يكون المعلم الجديد زي الفل. الغريبة ان امة لا إله إلا بحت صوتها ان الامريكان في طليعة العالم- حتى اللحظة دي- لأنها بلد سياسات دولة وادارة مش زينا سياسة معلمين ورش ميه.. يعني انا مستغرب جدا ازاي الاستاذ وائل بيقبل فلوس الادارة الامريكية- ايوة: فلوس الادارة الامريكية مش الامم المتحدة مثلا- اللي طلعته امريكا وجابتله مكان يقيم فيه، وبعد كده يرفض يقابل رأس الادارة دي.. طيب هو مش برضه “الاستاذ وائل عباس” لازم ح يكون فاهم كده؟
انا ح اعتبر انه فاهم بس بيستعبط من باب التقدير وحفظ المقام ليس إلا.
وطبعا برضه هو استهل اساسا بالبقين دول:
“بوش مش رئيس جمهورية بلدي ولا ولي أمري ولا ولي امر العالم كما هو متخيل. بوش مش رمز لأي حاجة كويسة أصلا علشان حد يتشرف أو يتكرم بمقابلته. مقابلة بوش تلطخ أي شريف وليست تشريف أو تكريم.”
طب والله عظيم خالص.. طب يعني ومن باب زيادة التأكيد: هل لو سلم الاستاذ وائل على ريتشارد بيرنز أو فرانك ويزنر او دينيس روس او.. او.. او..هل سيعتبر ده كل ما تقدم وصفه؟ ولا هذه نقرة وهذه نقرة وكل سنة وانتم طيبين وكل من له نبي يصلي عليه؟ ومعلهش برضه مش عايز حد ينظر ويقولي ايوة: مقابلة دبلوماسية غير مقابلة برلمانية غير مقابلة سياحية وانت ما بتفهمش ف السياسة! ح ارد واقول والله فيه مقابلات رسمية وغير رسمية آه.. فيه تفاوض بين اعداء ايوة.. فيه زيارات استطلاع وتقييم وماله.. بس يعني بتكون المواقف واضحة، يعني مش اقبض من الادارة وبعدها اشتم راس الادارة، واكون رافض سياسة امريكا وثوري وبتاع وبعد كده امريكا تصرف عليا ف زيارة.. دي حاجة انا مش قادر افهمها فعلا.
ويستمر الاستاذ وائل عباس في مقطوعة الربابة، مرورا بالاحتماء في اوباما وسيرته (الراجل مهما اتهاجم حاليا فالهجوم مش مؤثر للدرجة باعتباره اول اسود بقى رئيس لامريكا ولأنه لسه فعلا ما استلمش منصبه بشكل دستوري.. لسه ما اتحرقش يعني)، إلى الفقرة الكوميدية التالية:
” الادارة الامريكية القديمة للاسف عارفة انها رايحة وبتشتغل بمبدأ يا رايح كتر من الفضايح وبتعمل انها بتكرم عدد من المناضلين في حين انها في الحقيقة بتلوثهم وعايزة تنسب الفضل في نضالهم ونجاحهم لنفسها قبل ما تمشي. أنا باحب الشعب الأمريكي والشعب الأمريكي هو اللي بيحتضني ويكرمني وليست الإدارة الأمريكية”
والله الاستاذ وائل عباس فهمه وتفسيره للسياسة الامريكية لا يخلو من نبرة خالتي وخالتك، والفضايح واللي رايح وما شابه.. ده غير انه شايف ان الادارة الامريكية بتحاول تلوث المناضلين، اللي هما هو شخصيا. طيب عظيم، وبصرف النظر عن ان الاستاذ وائل اعتبر نفسه مناضلين كده بصراحة ووضوح يشكر عليهما: هو ليه الاستاذ وائل قبل فلوس المعونة الامريكية؟ طيب غير كده، ليه الاستاذ وائل عباس بيبهدل نفسه بأيده بحركة عنترية زي “البيان” اللي هو كاتبه ده؟ هل الادارة الامريكية ممكن تتعب نفسها اساسا في محاولة تلويث العقلية دي؟!
ومعلهش قبل ما انسى، هو الشعب الامريكي اللي لمله فلوس التذكرة والاقامة (ومش باقول البوكيت مني) في اطار “الحملة الشعبية الامريكية لاحتضان وإكرام المواطن المصري الاستاذ وائل عباس”؟!! ولا ايه؟! وما دام هو ايه، ليه بقى بق زي انا بحب الشعب الامريكي وهو كمان بيحبني وربنا يهني سعيد بسعيدة ده؟؟!
ما بلاش قرع ومرعة كدابة شوية، ليه كل واحد عايز يبقى المناضل والبطل والدبلوماسي والعظيم ورب الاسرة والخال والد كمان؟ لو يا سيدي انت معندكش مشكلة مع الادارة الامريكية، وفلوس الادارة الامريكية، طب ليه الحركة دي؟ ولو انت رافض التواصل مع الادارة، وجه امريكا الرسمي، وبتفضل الشعب والمجتمع المدني، طب ليه حضرتك قبلت تطلع على حساب ذات الادارة؟
طب اقولك يا ميرو؟ والله انا اسف اني بعلق والراجل وائل عباس ده زي الفل.. وممكن طبعا هو يعتبر الكلام ده شرشحة وقلة ادب.. ومادام هو بيقول يا رايح كتر م الفضايح انا برضه ممكن أقول اللي يلاقي الدلع وما يتدلعش.. يبقى *****! وعلى ذلك انا باعتذر للأستاذ اللي لقى الدلع فتدلع وبقوله حقك عليا انا اللي عندي مشكلة يا ريس.. طريقك اخضر..
More evidence of why one of the priorities of the Obama administration will be to repair America’s damaged international reputation.
Wael Abbas is naive and bit arrogant. This self-righteous attitude is so prevalent in the Arab world that it makes me sick and tired, because I am an arab. He declines to meet Bush for all the wrong reasons. He should be quiet and just say “Sorry, I will not meet the a lame duck president” instead he goes on with his usual self-righteous diatribe by giving lessons of comparative personal psychology of all the Third world leaders. If this is not arrogance I do not not what it is.
He asks Bush (or America) to stop supporting Mubarak. I am no fan of Mubarak, but if this famous arab blogger thinks that his blog will be fast and running under any other type of president or political system, he should think twice about that, unless of course he redirects his blogging fame and energies toward a nobler cause by creating a transparent Egyptian society. Well he can dream on for now, I would like to see him say something under another dictatorial regime whether it be islamo-religiously based or the fascits pan-arab anti-zionist terror based regime.
وحضرتك جبت منين التاكيد ان وائل بيقبض او اخد اي فلوس من الادارة الامريكية
انا حد علمي ان وائل سافر تلات مرات
مرة مع فريدوم هاوس اللي هي مؤسسة اهلية مستقلة
ومرة علشان جايزة نايت على حساب المركز الدولي للصحفيين اللي هو برضه مؤسسة اهلية
والمرة التالتة لتغطية الانتخابات على حساب الجامعة الامريكية اللي هي برضه جامعة اهلية مش حكومية بيتعلم فيها المصريين
يبقى ليه التشنيع والكلام الفاضي ده
[...] Egyptian blogger Wael Abbas, who features in my book The Blogging Revolution, recently refused a meeting with outgoing US President George W. [...]
Though in principal I would not have assumed that sstance and would have used that opportunity as a llaunching platform to transmit my message, isn’t this wwhat all blogging is about???!! Isn’t it to express iindividual thoughts?
There are major issues in the political discourse oof “Westernized Arab liberals” across the Arab world. TThey sometime loose sight of what they priorities are aas they get lost on the western media hype and ggovernments rhetoric. Let’s be clear the Arab world nneeds a major process of democratisation and preferably ssome type of secular Republics but not necessarily fformed on the American model. Also, let’s not muddle sseparate causes and issues and put them all in one bbasket. The majority of Arab countries are secular ttotalitarian regimes (apart from few British created ggulf emirates) and pan-arabism is no more than a hhistorical relic. As far as anti-zionism is concerned I bbelieve there is a unanimous position across the Arab ppolitical spectrum, and in my opinion this is one of tthe most contentious issues that any democratic mmovement need to deal with and clearly formulate a sstandpoint in the future.
Though in principal I would not have assumed that stance and would have used that opportunity as a launching platform to transmit my message, isn’t this what all blogging is about???!! Isn’t it to express individual thoughts?
There are major issues in the political discourse of “Westernized Arab liberals” across the Arab world. They sometime loose sight of what they priorities are as they get lost on the western media hype and governments rhetoric. Let’s be clear the Arab world needs a major process of democratisation and preferably some type of secular Republics but not necessarily formed on the American model. Also, let’s not muddle separate causes and issues and put them all in one basket. The majority of Arab countries are secular totalitarian regimes (apart from few British created gulf emirates) and pan-arabism is no more than a historical relic. As far as anti-zionism is concerned I believe there is a unanimous position across the Arab political spectrum, and in my opinion this is one of the most contentious issues that any democratic movement need to deal with and clearly formulate a standpoint in the future.
Manus,
What is this about America not interested in democracy in the Arab world? or being interested in its own interests? Here we go again…. blaming someone else for arab nations’ own failure. When is this game going to be over? I cannot beleive it.. people have always something to complain about to divert the issue. The problem is not somewhere else, it is in our nations and the mass of people that are still living in the dream world of the glorious past. When are you people going to wake up from your self-made delusions…
What are the interests of the Arab world anyway? Why can’t we blame oursleves for being ignorant, deceitful, uneducated, self-righteous, tyranical and to put it plainly tribal authoritarian personality. What democracy do you want? I am sure you have not even thought about it. OK you do not want western style democracy… What do you want? The iron hand of Sharia run by theocratic imams…or the iron hand of a nice dictator or redeemer for the Arab cause to wipe out Israel in order to give you pride and arrogance only to see him buried in the sand when he fail….What kind of democracy do you have in mind? Or do you have something in your mind beside the usual anti-western diatribe…?
Redouane:
With all due respect this is the issue I was pointing at in my previous comment. The “Pro Western Arab Liberals” are using the same tactics as Islamists today. What we need now is not a bunch of zealous demagogues or this kind of discourse but new Arab political movements that believe in Democracy as a political conviction but not advocates of an alien model imposed to us to serve the interest of a third party. Yes I want a Democracy but not from the top down and not within the new American paradigm. New confident, independent secular Republics not a plutocracy designed in the corridors of Washington. I think it is time for all the democratic forces in the Arab world to wake up and smell the coffee and see the true ambitions driving the world today as without an understanding of western governments realpolitik and the policies of America that consider primarily their own interests in dealing with other countries, we will be doomed and we will have mini oligarchies running the show.
I dream of a European style democracy not an African or Latin American one.
Ok Manus,
I understand your point, however you have not laid out the TYPE of democracy you have in mind. Or the type of democracy REALLY the Arab world needs. You simply describe a transparent democratic ideals, not this not that. What is it you want? The republic of Plato I should say. That’s a dream Manus. Well it is fine and dandy to say that you do not want an American dictated type of democracy but you want a european style democracy. That’s too simplistic for a policy option. European societies did not figure out democracy one day when they wake up from their countless years of absolute monarchies and secular empires run by begnin dictators. Democracy has pre-requesites Manus, it cannot just be adopted over night. That’s why they fail even with the best intent of its delusional intellegensia.
You need to build social institutions like the (1)economy so wealth can be distrubuted equitably through advanced economic development. YOU NEED (2)EDUCATED MASSES that accept different points of views about relevant issues (instead of killing your neighboors just because they are different or hold different ideas or religion (coptic)). Education (3)will bring much needed acceptance of dissent in the arab (muslim) police states. You will need (4)diffusion of power (or elected government power must be restrain a bit in order not for it to run the show at its pleases. You will need (5)access to all type of information even if it is against the widely held views of the muslim states. Go and put on print anything critical of islam (which they are many) and you will see what will happen to you. Go and blogg about the Real conditions of the Egyptian Copts and you will see what will happen to you. Access to information is key to democracy.
Manus, you simply naive person when you say and I quote you: “… I think it is time for all the democratic forces in the Arab world to wake up and smell the coffee and see the true ambitions driving the world today as without an understanding of western governments realpolitik and the policies of America that consider primarily their own interests in dealing with other countries…”
Yes, smell the coffee Manus. Which democratic forces are you talking about? Where are they? I have not seen any. They may say they are democratic, but once in power, the blood will not cease to flow my dear Manus. Why are you such credileous person? beleiving that they are fictional forces out there that will bring democracy.. What are the baseless grounds fro such beliefs? Why blame everything of the outside world. Why do you resort to a conspiracy type theory.
If this is your anology of getting SIMPLE democratic ideas off the ground in an dead beat arab societies, the people might even join you in the simplistic blaming game you play. I do not want to seem too pessimistic but the facts on the ground and all throughout history reveal that predominantly Muslim nations cannot be democratic… because they are none now (with the exception of Turkey and Indonisia).
Of course you might think it is NOT an internal problem to muslim societies themselves inherent in a religious culture of hate, deceit and descrimination that is bound to subdue the copts and animist of Egypt.
Manus, you need to be a little restrained of your views about the blaming game and using America as a scapegoat for failures of democracy in the Arab world. Just because America support the Mubarak the dictator does not mean that they do not want Egyptians to have democracy. THINK a little, use your head instead of your fluffy heart and rest asure that your democratic forces in Egypt if they had they way will bring in the worse autocratic rule whether it be Sharia’s (the copts will be compel to convert or suffer the consequences) or a secular military junta that will sign a pact with the devil islamist in order to keep the society as backwards politically.
Real democracy means secular society NOT Religious. There must be a general consensus about basic values which cannot be religeous. They have to be humanistic and universal and shared by all.
تشنيع؟
“على حد علمك” ده غلط يا استاذ، تالت مرة التمويل كان بمعرفة المنحة الامريكية.. ياريت انت تتأكد من الكلام فبل ما تقوله
تحياتي
المعونة الامريكية *
انا قلت على حد علمي لان بالفعل لدي علم بالموضوع وتواضعا منى لانه ليس من الذوق ان اتكلم بغير ذلك لكن ما تقوله انت محض تشنيع مازلت تصر عليه بل وتطالب غيرك بالتأكد
with all due respect to the discussion that is taking place here, you guys don’t know anything about politics inside egypt, the reactions of the opposition and the regime to a meeting like that, and whether the gains and benefits of this meeting is more than the damage it is going to do to the activist and blogger.
things are not the same in egypt as it is in your countries, you haver not experienced politics inside egypt to talk like that, the guy knows what is good for him and what is going to cost him his reputation and political credibility.
thing in egypt can’t not be dealt with in this pragmatic manner you are discussing, it is a privilage you have while we don’t have.
I am absolutely baffled by your comments my friend. You use the same techniques of persuasion as the Islamists. Well I do not want us to change from a religious fanaticism to a secular one. Let me correct few mistakes or misrepresentation you made in your riposte:
• The Irony is that I lean more towards a Jeffersonian Democracy, but ours not like the one in Iraq now or the democraturs America supports around the world.
• I thank you for enlightening me about the requirement of a democracy but this was neither the forum nor the place to go into the mechanics of it, and FYI great endeavours always start from small ideas and become great dreams. We need to start somewhere.
• Please refrain of making an omelette of different issues. We are not talking about individuals so please do not personalise the issue.
• If you have any strong resentment or sympathies for the plight of a particular cause or ethnic group, I wish you all the best and believe me any person with some level of decency should do that too. However, there are many other forums where such subject matter could be discussed.
• Please, do not misrepresent what I have said by adding, spinning, or massaging facts. I would like to let you know that I have always been an admirer of American democracy and its political institutions. However, that does not mean that I should agree all the time with all their policies (mainly foreign policy), and to be fair to me I am not the only one who feels like that about the present direction of US. I did not know that Copt Neo-cons existed.
• What is Naïve is to think that the US foreign policy is based solely on ideological considerations. The Anglo-Saxon diplomacy is extremely pragmatic and yes sometimes even Machiavellian to the extreme. However, the Bush clan confused Machiavelli with exporting tyranny.
• Yes, you would not know about Arab democratic forces because firstly they are not given the time of day by western media and not at all supported by western governments. Democracy brings transparency and accountability and that sometimes could be on collision course with the “American National interest in the region”. To deny the existence of it by just labelling it as a paranoid political reflex is not only irresponsible but intellectually corrupt. These forces are neither fictional nor I am incredulous. You should visit the neo-con forums and listen to their ideological mentors. They sound exactly like the worst fanatical Islamists. They are just another side of the same coin. I deplore and hate any type of fanaticism. While Muslim fundamentalism is vilified in the west, secular (like in Denmark)/Jewish Orthodox (Like in west bank) and Christian Evangelical right (Like those who voted for Bush) go largely unremarked: These groups are used to justify their policies that are as racist, as totalitarian and as xenophobic, as the worst excesses of anti-Semitism. When democracies are bent and start looking like ethnocracies and the rule of law and due process is played with and the burden of proof is shifted so far to one side, true democrats not blinded by hate and prejudice should come out and defend their values. Please, stop using the same semantics used in 1936 (It smells of the 3rd Reich) to describe a Nation that has no say on its destiny. I hate to say this but you sound sometimes like a cross between Richard Pearl and Jean-Marie Le Pen, hiding behind a mask of lamenting the faith of fellow Arabs.
• Does the following names ring a bell: General Pinochet, Hassan II, Mubutu, Amin, Emperors Boccasa , Savimbi, Abacha, Banzer, Batista, Bolkiah, Botha, Branco, Cerezo, Chiang Kai-Shek,Cordova, Christiani,Diem,Doe, The Duvaliers, Franco, Al Saoud, Marcos, Noriega, Martinez, Ozal, Shah of Iran, Papadopoulos, Park Chung Hee,Pol Pot,Rabuka,Suharto,Somoza, Salazar, Montt, Stroessner, Smith,Trujillo, Videla, Salassie,Zia Ul-Haq , to name but a few. Let me see, what do they all have in common?!!! Oops they are all the dictators America supported and helped to stay in Power. A conspiracy theorist you must be joking or deluding yourself.
• I believe in Democracy, National integrity, and Independence.
Finally, if you want an honest debate and a constructive exchange of views, please tone down the rhetoric and provide practical solutions to this mammoth task. Just dismissing a part of humanity by uttering that Arab societies cannot be democratic cannot serve any purpose. In fact it will create a vacuum where the common enemy and islamist treat will flourish.
Saad
I do not claim to know Egypt’s politics. I am not an Egyptian and I have never lived in Egypt. The point I was trying to make is one of principle an Ideological stance. There is a consensus here that we need a Democratic solution to our political crisis across the Arab world. There might be some marginal differences between different Arab countries but the core of the issue remains the same. Where I differ with Redouane, is he is basically saying that Arab societies are so primitive, backward, tribal and in simple terms unable to be democratic, that we should totally ignore this project as Democracy takes time and generations of democratic education to attain that ideal. In another word, he is using the same analogy used by white supremacist in South Africa during the apartheid era. What he is saying sounds to me in simple terms the description of “Social dominance theory”
I happen to differ with this theory totally. What I am saying that radical changes can happen in violent ways, a one time historical event. In other words events like the French Revolution, Bolshevism, The fall of the Berlin Wall, The fall of communism, the rise of the NAZI party, Kemal Attaturk,etc are just events that reshape society in one time historical contest. Most East-European and Asian Democracies today do not have a democratic past. Most of them were Feudal societies and after the Bolshevik revolution totalitarian regimes.
Also, he is saying tat the west responsibility to positively and genuinely contribute to the democratisation of Arab countries is simply a way of laying the blame of our collective failure on the door of somebody else. I am saying that the west “Civilisational Mission” claims and high moral humanist values are not supported by the reality of their diplomacy. They preach one thing and do another.
Wael Abbas and millions like him around the Arab world find themselves in this moral dilemma and intellectual limbo.
One of the most challenging questions that Arab democratic movements will face in the future is the formulation of the type of democracy they aspire to. This dialogue is so pivotal at this juncture in history that a close look is required to solve this conundrum. Not to talk about it under any pretext is just not an option.
What you believe is in a dream my friend, not reality. I really like to see democratic institutions emerging in the Arab world, but I am more grounded in reality rather than dreams. You instead are delusional poet. Now you seem to like American democracy, while earlier you fraunt it as a guise for an american hegemony and politics. You keep flip flopping like a rabbit that cannot find his burrow.
You keep rambling and rambling about politics and history which shows that you are informed. There is no need to go on about your appreciation of Jeffersonian democracy (I guess you knew that he owned slaves and his democracy was intended for white landowers right??) Anyway that beside the point. While your narrative of the democracy is OK you keep avoiding anwsering a simple question that yourself made a claim about which is: “that democratic forces in arab nations should wake up…” if you believe that there are democratic forces in arab world, then name them, describe them. Where are they? instead you try to avoid the question by attacking me for misrepresenting your claims. All I hear and read from the Arab world is a return to Sharia laws or a quazi-model for it to help solve some pressing problems. And you telling me that there are democratic forces at play somewhere in the Arab world. Where? Are these the religious moderate who wants some forms of Sharia laws to co-exist with secular western style democracy? Is that what it is? Be strainghtforward and answer the question.
All I did in my previous comment is to show you some simple pre-requesites for democracy to emerge. All this was because you stated that you like the european style parlamentary system than the republican system in America. Which is Ok? However, we are talking about Arab countries. You might like it yes, but is this system feasible in the Arab world. My pre-requisites show that it can, only if the arab nations meet those criteria. If not then why ramnble about Jeffersonian democracy or city hall democracy, world politics and other unrelated rubbish talk talk. That’s the reason why your claims are grounded in wishful thinking and ideals instead of reality and facts on the ground.
I asked you a simple question and you dodged it again. I am afraid there is no need to debate because you do not know what you are talking about.
الله على تواضعك يا استاذ محمد
:)
فعلا انت متأكد؟ ولا حضرتك برضه امتداد لذات الخيابة الفكرية اللي اتكلمت عليها قبل كده؟ واحد يقولي رفضت اقابل الرئيس الامريكي (وده ممكن يكون صحيح علشان يكسب نقطةولا اتنين مع عالم هبل)، وحضرتك مصر اسرار عجيب على انك بُرم وفاهم كل حاجة.. بص يا استاذ محمد: محمد علاء الدين ما بيقولش حاجة ما يعرفهاش، وتبعًا لذلك، فاتأكد انت معلهش، قبل ما تتكلم بثقة كده وتقول “تشنيع”، انا باقولك “اللي مول” هي المعونة الامريكية.. الواجهة بقى الجامعة الامريكية، مؤسسة الدرب الاحمر الخيرية، ما اعرفش
واللي بقولهولك ده سهل تتأكد منه لو كلفت نفسك وسألت اي حد طلع الرحلة الاخرانية
تمام يا سيدي المتواضع؟؟؟؟؟
إصرار *
I am sorry to say this but you are nothing but a sophist with no substance, incapable to reason and understand that Democracies can be and are sometimes inherently tyrannical by their nature… Here we go again judging the morality of 19th century America by today’s Standards and coming up with 3rd rate pub quizzes trivia (FYI slavery at that time was morally acceptable and legal). The USA has always had wars and enemies since its inception. If it is not the Mexicans, it’s the French, the Chinese, the Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Russian, each other, and now it is our turn. They practised genocide on the native population and indulged in slavery for decades after everybody else has stopped. It is just the nature of that expansionist regime that has the ambitions of an Empire. However, and I do not need to hide nor flip flop, the American system of governance still and remains a model for governance (Slaves were not considered as fully fledged citizens – they were just a commodity), which bit of my argument don’t you understand???
Also, I am not dodging to answer your question. I just need more that few comments to do a post-mortem of the political through the Islamic world. However if you insist allow me. This is going to be coming on many different tranches. I believe you suffer form “The Iranian Liberal Syndrome” you are judging 1.5 billion people through your experience. You are obsessed by the “Return of sharia law”. The reality on the ground shows totally the opposite. From Morocco to Turkey major reforms had been taking place to totally remove religion from all aspect of law. All the Maghreb countries have a legal system based on French jurisprudence apart from the family law until recently. The Mudawana in Morocco reformed family law and made polygamy but impossible in practise. The new code gives women rights comparable to women in many developed countries. Opposition political parties are legal, and several have been formed in recent years.
كره تجاه الرئس بوش يرتفع ارتفاعا شديدة…:
“نعت صحفي عراقي الرئيس الأميركي جورج بوش الذي حل في زيارة مفاجئة ببغداد خلال مؤتمر صحفي بأنه “كلب” باللغة العربية وصوب حذاءه تجاهه دون أن يصيب هدفه.” http://aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/690310D7-51A2-41FB-A175-34678C4CA784.htm
-أندريه, http://www.myarabicstories.com
Moreover, the last elections the Istiqlal Party a central right party won dislodging the socialists. . For the first time in the history of elections in Morocco, they have been monitored by foreign observers including the U.S.’s National Democratic Institute for International Affairs and 42 others. Yes, this election according to the observers was fair and square. The Islamist did not win as predicted by the merchants of doom and gloom and American political experts. They only managed to get 52 sits out of 325. Let’s not forget; only 20 years ago the FIS next door in Algeria had a landslide. Algeria is a secular state and according to the constitution, no political association may be formed if it is “based on differences in religion, language, race, gender or region. They took French laicism literally and applied it. Tunisia, women enjoy equal rights, polygamy is legally banned and Ramadan is not observed by a presidential decree. Libya is a Stalinist state. The same apply to Syria. Lebanon with all its problems is a multi-faith democracy. Jordan is a monarchy with a mix bag of political parties made of Islamists, leftists, Arab nationalists and conservative. Iraq according to the west is a democracy and comes under the banner of the free world (Well that is debatable) with an American dissertation for a constitution. Egypt, you tell me, you are the expert- as far as I know the mullahs have not taken over power.
The reasons for these changes are very simple, as many Arab countries (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Jordan, and Libya recently in much slower pace) are consolidating assets and wealth and the legislative bodies are defining the legal framework to speed the process (Creating some legislative parallel with EU legislation). This is exactly what happened in Russia and most eastern European before becoming fully fledged democracies. First; the oligarchs (maily ex-communist operatives) took over any type of economical activity and literally helped themselves. The best way to protect foreign investments and the Wealthy Oligarchies that are pouring capital in North Africa is, Initially to share the cake between these emerging super holdings under the control of few families then use the institutions of the state to protect them and legislation (under a credible democracy) to legitimize the whole process. The more economical and financial assets are consolidated, like an accordion, the more liberties people are having. Massive Infrastructure projects are taking place and wherever the unemployed is removed the islamists are beaten. It is as simple as that. Islamist will be suffocated under that system as their relevance will diminish with time. The independence of the judiciary and the army will be necessary (see what has happened in Turkey for many years) to protect the Status Quo and anybody resorting to political intimidation or violence will be labelled as terrorists and all measures regardless of their severity to redress this immediate treat will have all the blessing of the international community. This is already starting to happen as we speak.
Other issues such as the abolition of capital punishment (In practice there is no capital punishment in Morocco) are being debated in the parliament. A General reform of Moroccan Nationality has been passed by parliament. I lived in Morocco during Hassan II 25 years ago and believe me it is heaven on earth now. To just dismiss these changes is simply a deception. There is a relentless process of total privatizations of public utilities and assets. The real Estate prices are going up the roof (A meter of land in the Centre of Tangier or Marrakesh will cost more than twice the price in Toronto, London or Paris ) The emergence of a middle class with an extremely entrepreneurial spirit and consumerism will reshape the politics of the country. Many years ago I used to visit Spain and Portugal regularly and believe me it was hundreds of times worse than any country I visited in North Africa today. It took all the might of the west and after billions of EU tax payer’s money to make some meaningful democracy out of many of these southern European countries. If only 10% of that effort was invested in any country south side of the Mediterranean we will have democracies as dynamic as any European country. They will be a beacon of hope for the whole region. Sadly there is no political appetite for that. The Arab world is a mosaic with different truths. For a start a Berber is neither a Khalligi nor a Somali is a Syrian. They have different realities and priorities. What do you mean by change?? What democratic institutions Poland had under General Wojciech Jaruzelski _ What did Walesa (apart from the politburo) find that does not exist today in the Arab world? It was just a historical fortuitous event that happened in Russia and cascaded across Eastern Europe. If we manage the same in one Arab country the rest will follow. That is exactly what happened during the independence movement, the same will happen once the democratization process starts. However, the mess the USA created in Iraq is not helping at all. I think I know who you are talking about when you bring up “ Sharia” - Kuwait, with all 3 million of them (Not even the population of Casablanca) and Saudi-Arabia with the surrounding mini states I could not find on the map. All in all, it is the population of one country in the Maghreb. This is the political analysis of “Fox News” not anybody with one iota of objectivity and common sense. It is exactly like viewing the whole west through a specific lens and coming up with all type of ludicrous conclusions. Portraying the plurality and diversity of the Arab world through the mini gulf emirates prism is simply criminal. People have lost there lives and have been tortured, exiled for the advance of democracy in many Arab countries. Who are you to come and erase them from our collective memory because you are an ignorant? Where were people like you during the Years of Lead? Where was the west apart from doing the dirty job of those dictators? (Include the CIA and French intelligence, in disposing of dissidents).. I want to know one thing, where was the west when warplanes and heavy weaponry attacking major Urban areas for daring to challenge the regime. Cities like Casablanca, Tangiers, Al-Husseima, Nador, and Oujda were bombarded. Democratic Student Movements crashed and attacked like in the University of Fes, Casablanca. Hundreds of political activists disappeared and some until today we do not where their remains are. There was a wall of silence in Paris, Washington and in all European capitals. The West has a serious disease called selective historical Amnesia In the sixties, seventies, and eighties all this movement were spontaneous, advocating more democratic polical participation and a transparent accountable government. Most of the leader of those movements and political parties were thrown in jail. People like Driss Benzekri who became in 1993 “Equity and Reconciliation Commission and International Criminal Court” Director. People like Abderrahim Bouabid, Anis Balafrej, Abraham Serfati, Abdelatif Zeroual, Sion Assidon, Saida Mnebhi, and thousands like them. (If you want to whole list get « Le Reigne Hassan II ») Contemporary Islamism at the time was supported financed and helped to flourish by the USA to stop the advance of communism and influence of the Soviet-Union in the Middle East. It was contained and limited to miniscule pockets in Islamic world. Islamism as it exists today was totally unknown in many countries in the Arab world. Whereas I believe that tyranny is not the monopoly of totalitarian regimes, you think that Democracies are incapable of being tyrannical or they are justified in doing so. Whereas I think they can be as manipulative as deceitful and as hungry for blood as any dictatorship. You hail them as the new messianic absolute truth. I see democracies as the best of a bad lot. If communism has failed, Western Democracies have not resolved our problems. However, they still and remain mankind only hope for a better life. Yes we are back to “The Ring of Gyges”, and not much has changed since then. Sadly, your motives and drive seem to me to be of a sectarian nature.