The Olympics have sure gone by quickly! Over the past two weeks a lot of people have been quite adamant about overlooking any news or issues not directly pertaining to the competitions in Beijing and other Olympic venues themselves (or am I just perpetuating a myth?), and even those, it seems, that involve anything unpleasant, even the infraction of IOC rules. It almost makes you wonder how much more harmonious the Olympics would be online if bloggers had access to things like footage of Usain Bolt setting not one but TWO world records.
Anyway, it was hard to ignore the news of two seventy-plus-year-old women who in applying to protest in special ‘Olympic Games protest zones' ended up unknowingly applying to be arrested, and were then sentenced to one year of re-education through labor. One photo now circulating around the internet is also helping popularize the latest anti-censorship slight-of-hand, aka ‘don't speak just look at this photo'. Even anti-CNN.com got talking about the story in response to a 08/20 Guardian report on the controversy:
龙威不可犯:
呵呵，俺现在对这样的新闻报道一笑而过，连气都不会生。
Hehe, I just laugh and move on now when I see news like this, I can't even get angry over it.
hqt1972
毫无感觉
No feeling whatsoever
changyuqi
笑笑就算了….我相信我们政府脑子还没那么混乱,抓2个70岁的老太太再告诉你们西方媒体?
Just laugh and forget about it…I don't think our government is foolish enough to arrest two 70-something old ladies and then tell those western media
于哲
怎么可能呢
外交部记者会上竟然也有记者问这问题
How could this be?
Some journalists actually asked about this at the Foreign Affairs press conference
无耻白人
中国入侵西藏的新闻都编得出来,这还不是毛毛雨
They make news up about China invading Tibet, this isn't just a piffle
stkanon
挖靠, 这种谣也造得出来
倒底是记者太没常识还是太不要脸?
Damn, even this kind of news gets made up
Is the problem that journalists just have no common sense, or do they have no self-respect?
klmn170
看完楼主的帖子，我的心情竟是久久不能平静。正如老子所云：大音希声，大象无形。我现在终于明白我缺乏的是什么了，正是楼主那种对真理的执着追求和楼主那种对理想的艰苦实践所产生的厚重感。面对楼主的帖子，我震惊得几乎不能 …
[note: 提示: 作者被禁止或删除 内容自动屏蔽]
After reading this post, I felt upset for quite some time. Just like Laozi emphasized: great wisdom is not readily apparent. Now I finally understand what it is I'm lacking, that being your stubborn search for the truth, and the weightiness that comes with your painstaking upholding of ideals. Faced with this post of yours, I'm so shocked I can barely…
[Note: the above comment has been deleted, but could be retrieved further down where another reader had, by the time it was deleted, already replied to it]
bird327
此消息是否真实，不得而知，但是当前社会问题频发确实不容回避的事实，
I have no way of knowing if this news is true or false, but it's a fact that the recurring social problems nowadays cannot be avoided
wulixuan:
原帖由 klmn170 于 2008-8-21 10:43 发表
看完楼主的帖子，我的心情竟是久久不能平静。正如老子所云：大音希声，大象无形。我现在终于明白我缺乏的是什么了，正是楼主那种对真理的执着追求和楼主那种对理想的艰苦实践所产生的厚重感。面对楼主的帖子，我震惊得几乎不能 …
–你吃饱了撑得慌的话，去跑马拉松吧！
klmn170:
After reading this post, I felt upset for quite some time. Just like Laozi emphasized: great wisdom is not readily apparent. Now I finally understand what it is I'm lacking, that being your stubborn search for the truth, and the weightiness that comes with your painstaking upholding of ideals. Faced with this post of yours, I'm so shocked I can barely…
–If you ever get full from eating your own baloney, you should go run a marathon!
六毛党党员
上面有几个我认为可以涨工资了!
I think the few of you commenting above should get a raise!
没心的石头
两个70多，抗议？儿子去告诉媒体？媒体还要报道？什么概念？为**记者悲哀，一个国家要灭亡，总是记者先疯狂！！！
Two 70-somethings, protesting? Did their sons go tell the media? And the media reported on this? What nonsense is this? Showing grief to
porky017
现在拆迁很难，因为一个个都是狮子大张口，不把重孙子的钱要出来就不同意，好多农民都是这样一夜暴富的，估计如果真有此事，估计那两位老妈妈嫌以前要少了。北京地安门有一个拆迁，一共30来平米，要一套70多平米的商铺（价值400多万），另外再要1600万，最后被强拆了，这主是不是也和人权观察中心联系了。像这种人就得强拆，要闹事，就应该判刑。
Forcefully evicting people is really tough now, because they all suddenly become fiercer than lions; if you don't put up the money for their grandkids' college funds, they won't agree. This is how a lot of those farmers suddenly became rich overnight. I figure that if this case is for real, it's probably that those two old mums just didn't get paid enough previously. There was someone near Tiananmen in Beijing who got evicted, they had a total of 30-something square meters and wanted a 70-plus square meter commercial property (which is worth over 4 million), and 16 million on top of that. In the end they got forcefully evicted, and who knows if they even went and got in touch with a human rights monitoring center. People like this who get forcefully evicted and then make noise about it, they should get criminal sentences.
lasd:
原帖由 porky017 于 2008-8-21 11:38 发表 From:Anti-CNN求实交流论坛www.anti-cnn.com
现在拆迁很难，因为一个个都是狮子大张口，不把重孙子的钱要出来就不同意，好多农民都是这样一夜暴富的，估计如果真有此事，估计那两位老妈妈嫌以前要少了。北京地安门有一个拆迁，一共30来平米，要一套70多平米的商铺（价值400多万）， …
–对就是这样贪得无厌，利益谁会怕多呢？如果每个人都这样没有止境的要价，怎样办事情？人也应该要有一个度。
porky017:
Forcefully evicting people is really tough now, because they all suddenly become fiercer than lions; if you don't put up the money for their grandkids' college funds, they won't agree. This is how a lot of those farmers suddenly became rich overnight. I figure that if this case is for real, it's probably that those two old mums just didn't get paid enough previously. There was someone near Tiananmen in Beijing who got evicted, they had a total of 30-something square meters and wanted a 70-plus square meter commercial property (which is worth over 4 million)…
–Right on about this kind of endless greed. Who doesn't want more benefits! If everybody were like this and put no limit on the prices they asked for, how would anything get done? People need to have standards.
和谐共生
很多事情都不是表面看到的那样简单,这样的报导只能糊弄心里反感中国政府的老外
A lot of things aren't as simple as they appear on the surface; these kinds of reports will only deceive those laowais who are so revolted by the Chinese government
北门北风
典型的假新闻！
Classic fake news!
gwgzx
这些家伙一般提问都是诱导式的 找自己想要的
The questions these guys usually ask are all misleading, just out to find what they want to find
wxz
70多数的大妈应该晚饭过后去跳秧歌，不应该到处闹事，那么大的岁数了，也该要点老脸了。
70-something old mums should be dancing the yangge after dinner, not heading out and about making trouble. At such old age, they should have some dignity.
Widely-read blogger Lian Yue has, in his usual style, posted a link on his Lian Yue's Eighth Continent Bullog blog to the news in English providing only a brief explanation of the situation, with the title ‘Gold medal for re-education through labor‘. He posted the photo as well, and these are the comments from the first page (out of a total of more than 80 with over 15,000 views):
[匿名] 外宾 [60.176.172.*] @ 2008-8-21 17:41:25
这也叫新闻？
[匿名] 那些事 [60.209.121.*] @ 2008-8-21 17:41:28
不老实就劳教，不用审判，让你老实点。
[匿名] 洋大人 [60.176.172.*] @ 2008-8-21 17:42:47
什么事情想不通，只要想想这是在中国，就啥都想通了。。
[匿名] 牛逼犯 [123.128.130.*] @ 2008-8-21 17:42:52
我党何时不悲哀过？
[匿名] marmoset [220.231.35.*] @ 2008-8-21 17:46:32
看那jc的高兴样，真想冲上去给丫一个大嘴巴。狗屁体育盛会，就是一奥林匹克劳改营
Dog-ass sports ceremony, more like an Olympic labor reform camp
[匿名] OmegaLee [58.60.161.*] @ 2008-8-21 17:55:09
呜呼哀哉~
[匿名] kdc [203.143.160.*] @ 2008-8-21 17:56:14
[匿名] 外宾 [60.176.172.*] @ 2008-8-21 17:41:25
这也叫新闻？
=========
对外宾来说永远都是新闻。
–It'll always be news for those foreign visitors.
[匿名] 塔夫 [123.154.235.*] @ 2008-8-21 18:00:15
人们常说，“金钱是万恶之源”。这无疑是对金钱的污蔑与栽赃。君不见，那富可敌国的比尔·盖茨不仅给世界带来了优秀的软件，也为世界造就了一个伟大的慈善家。回顾人类历史上的种种悲剧，真正的结论或许应该是“不受约束的权力是万恶之源”。而对权力最有力的约束，对社会最有力的保障，莫过于可兑现的法治。如洛克所说：“法律的目的不是废除或限制自由，而是保护和扩大自由。这是因为在一切能够接受法律支配的人类的状态中，哪里没有法律，哪里就没有自由。”
[匿名] 路人衣 [88.165.120.*] @ 2008-8-21 18:00:56
其实。。我也经常说 我党。。。
[匿名] 呛你 [218.58.10.*] @ 2008-8-21 18:05:19
我党常出金牌教练
[匿名] 两大法宝 [218.98.33.*] @ 2008-8-21 18:11:39
劳教与污蔑是我党的两大法宝
[匿名] 白咏冰 [65.49.14.*] @ 2008-8-21 18:18:44
是因为申请游行被劳教的。
[匿名] 怎么办？ [203.97.213.*] @ 2008-8-21 18:29:57
反华媒体又在到处报道这个消息了。。。
[匿名] bw [58.38.221.*] @ 2008-8-21 18:55:14
[匿名] 怎么办？ [203.97.213.*] @ 2008-8-21 18:29:57
反华媒体又在到处报道这个消息了。。。
———————-
反个p华，是反土共。
–Anti-China my ass, they're just anti-CCP.
[匿名] 做中国人的悲哀 [58.217.180.*] @ 2008-8-21 18:56:52
做中国人真悲哀
Such a weighty topic, can anyone recommend any well-thought-out blog posts looking at the movement in China to abolish ‘re-education through labor' as an official form of punishment?
Send this by E-mail
“well-thought-out blog posts!?!” Your kidding, right. I can’t figure out how the education falls out of your head in the first place. We all know what is going on here. The Chinese have their choice: buy into the status quo or buck the system and be “re-educated.” It seems that since T-square, they have been re-educated very well. The free press can hand them the truth now, and they don’t believe it. For the last trying time, I will say: I had hoped for a miracle for the Chinese people. They had the world stage. They had a chance. They didn’t take it. See you in London JK. I have to say you have more stamina than I, Mr. Kennedy. Thank you for your efforts.
Actually, there is a lot of talk in legal circles about abolishing the ‘re-education through labor’ practice, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there are polls showing that most people find the practice primitive and backwards and embarrassing for China.
It’s been a long time since I’ve seen any good blog posts on this topic though, that’s why I threw the open invite for help out. I had a post or two at one point that were well worth translating, but I don’t know where I’ve stashed them and I can’t remember who wrote them (lawyer He Weifang was probably one of the bloggers).
What kind of news it is? This jounalist is so funny! She lost the chance to enjoy the wonderful Olympic games.
2 things:
1) Chinese judicial system, flawed as it is, does not go from arrest to sentence this fast.
2) Just listened to NPR, now the news is they are survalence but still are free; and they were told they would get the sentence…
I hope people have a bit of common sense before passing crap like this around.
The Olympic Games are about just that: The Games. The unity of the globe in one spot, sharing the values that make the Olympics what it is. Never have I heard so much political debate parallel to the greatest SPORTING event in the world. The way I see it? China will never be like the West; will never have the exact same fragmented freedom like the USA (now becoming a very unpopular way of life), nor the democratic ‘ascent’ like the former USSR (thanks to the West). And that’s because China is one of the oldest (and unconquered) civilizations in the world. It was the first ‘multicultural’ melting pot society, with more than 50 ethnicities living as a nation for thousands of years (including Tibet believe or not!). So I don’t know why you waste your time criticizing and analyzing the politics aspect when all nations are in China to compete for the glory of their own nations in a SPORTING event? What you want to see (American education system, criminal system, military, health system, taxation, economy), you can already see just by going to work every day (that is if you do have jobs out there), so why do you want to see these things in China? The Chinese do not care to see their way of life imposed in the West, they care about being a wonderful host for world in this opportunity that the IOC has granted. The question now is, will CNN let you see what I think?
Bashing, bashing, and continued bashing. If no negative news, dig out some! If there is really no negatives, eh… let’s talk about “dogs on the menu”.
As if your bashers could stop China’s rise.
Once more China gave a wonderful gift to the rest of the world.
The Olympics have always played host both to athletics and to politics: Berlin, Mexico City, Los Angeles, Moscow, to name a few, were all carried out with heavy political agendas. Oppressed people rightly see the Olympics as an opportunity to call attention to their oppression–it’s not as if we have a cable channel where victims of oppression can command our attention. That China is emerging as a world power is indisputable; so too are their abuses of human rights, a characteristic of all world powers since the 16th century. That we should expect the oppressed to keep silent is absurd.
Yo Kennedy,
It is good to see that you are still picking the corn out of our shit.
Talking about dedication. Even a die hard 50 cent guy, I mean 60 cents (got a raise), like me took time off for the Olympics. Ain’t them games something, what with Chinkyland raking in all them gold medals and what not.
Anyhow, Kennedy, I think I’ve gotten you figured out. All these nitpicking wrt to Chinkyland ain’t about advancement of anything — it’s not about advancement of democracy, human rights, or even animal rights.
I think it is a bit more simpler — stupidly simple for that matter. It is all about attention, ain’t it? Why else would you only pick and post crap that is nothing but inflammatory.
It can’t be anything else because there are a lot more effective and constructive ways of raising awareness and finding solutions for particular problems. Yeah, I am the first one to admit that Chinkyland got its share of problems, as with many other countries. But shit, it is obvious that you are not interested in any meaningful discussion or solution judging from the way that you have been going at it.
I think Wei got it right in another thread. It seems like you are only out to feed the trolls — that is, throw the inflammatory crap out there as bait and sit back and watch the mud flinging, flame wars, and more importantly the numbers stack up.
Kind of lame. But shit, when blog-fluence is measured in how many comments you can generate, why not get them any way you can, right?
Kennedy, if you disagree with my assessment, prove me wrong, okay.
first and foremost, i would like to say my heartfelt thanks to China and her people for giving us such a wonderful party. i am now suffering from post olympic withdrawal symptoms. i was never a fan of the olympics to begin with, but am now looking forward to london 2012. i sure hope that progress will continue to accelerate in china, long after the olympics is over.
as for all the criticism of the shortcomings of the chinese government, and areas where changes have to be made, such as human rights, media freedom and democracy etc, let me present my case:
there is no doubt china has its set of very challenging problems which they should and must prioritize on solving. they can be embodied in a few key terms, namely, fighting corruption, healthcare and education, and NOT,universal values such as human rights or democracy, much less media freedom. i would term these western values.
if the rich poor divide is not solved, if people lack basic healthcare services, if higher education is still too expensive for most (or their quality called into question) and government officials continue to abuse their authority in taking bribes, then, the chinese government, would have truly not serve the rights of her citizens.
as for those who argue democracy, human rights, media freedom is the only path to economic development, think again. take singapore for example. it has been ruled by 1 party for the past 40 years. it ranks 146th on the reporters without borders press freedom index. but it has enjoyed sustained economic growth since independence in 1965. if the abovementioned west-proclaimed universal values is key to an open, transparent, corruption-free government, check out the corruption perceptions index by transparency international. singapore ranks 4th.
now lets look at another example. taiwan. where has democracy brought it to? it has 2 political parties. the president is elected by the people. and for the past 8 years, what has its people-elected president done? the contrast is all too clear. try the Philippines?
my point is, any government’s main job, and hence its priority, is to, put it bluntly, feed its people. there is no 1 universal path to economic growth or alleviation of poverty. let ideals stay as ideals and accept that many of china’s problems today require hard, pragmatic solutions such as education, a meritocracy based government, public housing and healthcare schemes etc.
as for the reporters crying for more press freedom, well, it is human nature, for you to act that way, when your rights are restricted, or your mode of making a living threatened. but, let’s have less bias-ness and more rounded reporting. trying to impose western values on china or any other country, just because you feel less safe that a rising nation inherits a different set of values or takes a different path, is not going to change anything, but introduces more conflicts and polarises opinions. respect the difference. if you do want to judge the ability of the chinese government, based it on the economic well-being/livelihood of its people. These, are truly the primary rights of its people.
no platform, including the olympics, will serve to impose foreign values on any sovereign state. take olympics for what it is, a quadrennial international sporting event.
on the side, it is interesting to note that the U.S medal tally table is based on total medal wons, while rest of the world has it on total gold. sore loser?
To James Chua,
Quote:as for those who argue democracy, human rights, media freedom is the only path to economic development, think again. take singapore for example. it has been ruled by 1 party for the past 40 years.Unquote.
Yes,James,China is ruled by one party,CCP,for 59 years,Singapore is ruled by PAP(People’s Action Party) for 40 years.China’s CCP would like to continue its rule for another 500 years;Singapore’s Lee Kuan Yew also like his family to be able to control Singapore for the coming X numbers of years,since his son is the PM.
The similarity ends here.
The CCP has got something Lee Kuan Yew has not(Though he may very much like to have)
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8A%B3%E5%8A%A8%E6%94%B9%E9%80%A0
劳动改造简称劳改，是中华人民共和国罪犯管理的手段，通过对入狱者强制性的劳动，来达到管理者认可的目的。中國国内外常将劳改与劳教混淆，中國官方也笼统地合称为“二劳”，但二者是完全不同的，后者是一种行政处罚制度。
Forced labor reform,is a means used by the People’s Republic of China to manage convicts,by forcing convicts to do hard labor,to achieve the aims of the administrator.
劳动教养就是劳动、教育和培养[1]，简称劳教。
劳动教养 translate:Labor,Education and nurture.劳教 is the short form.
劳动教养制度是中华人民共和国从前苏联引进[2]，但形成世界上中国独有的制度。
劳动教养 is a system introduced by PRC from the former Soviet Union,is a unique in the world.
劳动教养并非依据法律条例，从法律形式上亦非刑法规定的刑罚，而是依据国务院劳动教养相关法规的一种行政处罚，(This sentence has too many legal terms,it is hard to do a precise translation.What it is saying is 劳动教养 does not strictly have a law to base on)
公安机关毋须经法庭审讯定罪，即可对疑犯投入劳教场所实行最高期限为四年的限制人身自由、强迫劳动、思想教育等措施。(This one is easier)
Public Security Bureau(Police) do not need to obtain a court conviction,can instantly put suspects into a 劳教场所 (forced labor camp)for a maximum of 4 years of imprisonment,with restriction of personal freedom,forced labor,and thought education,etc.
James,Lee Kuan Yew was a Queen’s Scholar in his student time,and Singapore’s political system is a copy of the Westminster System.May be he also like to put some of his political opponents into forced labor camps for 4 years without court proceeding?
To James Chua,
May be Lee Kuan Yew is really try to turn Singapore a totalitarian regime?
http://www.singapore-window.org/sw06/061006TT.HTM
Quote:WHEN Martyn See made his first film he thought it would be censored. He didn’t realize he would be investigated, his tapes and video camera confiscated, and he would ultimately be warned never to do it again.
Singapore’s Films Act bans the making, showing or distribution of “party political films,” or films “directed towards any political end in Singapore.”
Those prosecuted under the act face two years in prison or fines of up to S$100,000, or roughly US$59,000.Unquoted.
James,are we seeing a Lee Dynasty coming to Singapore?
dear alibaba, not sure what your point is. but if you are interested how opponents of PAP in its formative years were dealt with, there may be some materials around. you might also want to find out more about the internal security act.
i do not condone such actions (i refer to conviction without trial) by any government. and i do condemn the media ranting on and on about the injustice done, when there is so much more that they should focus on, even if they choose to ignore the marvels of the beijing olympics.
as mentioned, there are many more urgent issues challenging the rise of china. yet the western media has sung the same old tune of free tibet, human rights, political dissidents etc. other than being self-serving china bashing, i see little more to it. if you (again the media) are so concerned about china and its people, there are many more pressing issues you can shed more light on and exert pressure on. e.g. whatever happen to the investigation report on the hundreds of schools that have collapsed, burying with them thousands of schoolchildren, during the WenChuan earthquake while buildings right beside withstood the quake? or another case: if indeed there is political will to combat corruption, why is it then not mandatory for governemnt officials/civil servants to declare income?
i seriously do not see how the fate of a few political dissidents can improve millions of lives in china as compared to examples cited above, pardon the brutality of the statement.
as for lee hsien loong, son of lee kuan yew, the current prime minister, let just put it this way: may the best person take the job. i honestly do not care, how he may be related to the previous, or in this case ex-ex prime minister (before lee hsien loong, there was goh chok tong). the guiding principle should be meritocracy, simple as that.
what has democracy offered in terms of capable leadership? look at the U.S. there was bush, and then bush junior. these was iraq war, and then iraq war. if the necessary mechanism is in place, a 1 party government may continually renew itself to best lead a nation, what is so wrong about that.
as for lee kuan yew wanting his descendants to rule forever, or the CCP wanting to rule forever, what interests do such motives serve? a self serving corrupt regime will not withstand the test of time, but ultimately be overthrown. on the other hand, a truly people serving government that enables an entire nation to prosper, does it really matter who they are and how they are related to each other. monarchies failed because heir to throne must rule even if he is a moron. while democracy may offer more safeguard to that, it is not fail proof, and much less the universal truth/suffrage that it claims to be.
it is great you are passionate about abolition of forced labor reform, but for me, there are many other issues which i can never emphasize enough that will yield much more benefits per ounce of effort if addressed, and much more disastrous if ignored. but sure, these are less polarising issues, and not as attention grabbing when appearing on banners.
alibaba, interesting article about freedom of speech in singapore, or rather the lack of. a little evil that i can live with, for everything else singapore government has done. i do note that it was a 2006 article. and i do note that, for all of taiwan’s democracy, however enviable it maybe, chen shuibian is almost certain to have abused his authority and immunity during his reign to fatten his own pockets.
less freedom of speech in exchange for a clean open government, or a safer environment? i will gladly make that decision, without a blink.
http://9link.116.com.cn/node/21259
中国公款吃喝开支1989年为370亿元，1990年达到400亿元，1992年超过800亿元， 1994 年突破1000亿元大关，2002年达2000亿，2004年为3700亿元，而到2005年公款吃喝竟然达到6000亿，是国防开支的三倍。
公款吃喝 translate Government funded Food and Drinks.
1990=400,000,000,000 yuan
1992=800,000,000,000 yuan
1994=1,000,000,000,000 yuan
2002=2,000,000,000,000 yuan
2004=37,000,000,000,000 yuan
2005=60,000,000,000,000 yuan,which is 3 times that of the national defense budget.
James,China (1) has no opposition party to question the ruling party in the parliament
(2) has no public media to question any actions taken by the government
So, what action can you suggest the government to take up to fight this kind of corruption ?
http://www.china-labour.org.hk/chi/node/67394
2005年11月28日
”八五”期間，全國公車耗資720億元，年遞增27%，大大超過了GDP的增長速度。據保守統計，我國公車目前已達350萬輛，每年用在公車上的開支達3000億元，遠遠超過我國軍費開支
On the “八五” five year plan,the national expenditure on cars is 720,000,000,000 yuan,yearly increase is 27%,much faster than the increase in GDP.According to conservative statistic,there are 3.5 millions government owned cars,the yearly expenditure on government owned cars is about 3,000,000,000,000 yuan,far more than the country’s military expenditure.
James,how do you suggest to solve this problem?
And this report is dated 2005.Now is 2008.
http://www.china-labour.org.hk/chi/node/1265
2004年2月15日
James,a 2004 report,I can try to get a more up to date one.
2003年9月9日至21日聯合國人權委員會教育權報告員託馬舍夫斯基，應中國政府的邀請，考察了中國的教育狀況。中國的教育經費只佔全國生產總值的2%，
2003 United Nation reporter on Education Right 馬舍夫斯基 ,on Chinese Government invitation,had done a research on the condition of Chinese Education.She stated that the Chinese Educational Expenditure is only 2% of GDP
而且政府預算只佔教育總經費的53%，剩下的47%則要求家長或其他來源去填補。隨後她公佈的材料顯示中國的人均教育開支之少，連窮國烏幹達都比不上！
Moreover,the government can only budget 53% of the total Educational Expenditure,the remaining 47% will have to come from parents or some other sources.Later on she declared that Chinese Educational Expenditure per person is so little,cannot even compare to poor nation such as Uganda !
James,what can you suggest to the Chinese Government to solve this problem?
什麼是國恥？這便是不折不扣的國恥！！哪一國稍有責任心的政府會這樣辦教育？
http://big5.xinhuanet.com/gate/big5/news.xinhuanet.com/travel/2007-03/14/content_5912335.htm
James,in case you do not know, xinhuanet.com is the official Chinese news agency.This is a 2007 report,a bit more recent.
公費出國每年3000億 考察還是旅遊?
Government funded oversea trips costing 3,000,000,000,000 yuan.
Research and study,or just plain holiday tours?
北京市市長王岐山曾講過一個笑話，他說：“以前，聽說南斯拉夫的奶牛養得好，中國人就經常去學習參觀。當地的官員就對我們講，‘中國人就是愛學習，連我們的奶牛都認識中國人了！’”依筆者看，現在借公費出國行旅遊之實的大有人在，許多官員出國後只記得旅遊景點，“上車就睡覺、下車就拍照、回國後啥也不知道”。
The mayor of Beijing once told a joke:”It had been said that the dairy cows of Yugoslavia are very good,so we Chinese often go there to conduct research and study.Then the local official told us:Chinese do love to study,even our dairy cows get to know the Chinese.
I think there are a lot of people use the government fund to go oversea to have a tour,a lot of officials only remember the tourist hot spots.On the car they sleep,out of the car they take pictures,when return home they don’t know anything.
2005年公款吃喝达到6000亿
公車上的開支達3000億
公費出國每年3000億
_____________________________
三項开支每年12,000亿人民幣,真是个天文數字!
James,the total of the above 3 expenditures (government funded food and drinks,cars,oversea trips) per year is 12,000,000,000,000 yuan.
How do you suggest to the Chinese Government to stop this kind of nonsense ?
Put it another way,how many proper schools(not the Tofu building) all these money can build?
If these 2 old ladies haven’t learned their lessons about the CCP ways in the past ??? years, they really need to be re-educated. The same goes to other ??? protest applicants.
dear alibaba,
感谢你这么用心良苦地把一段段中文译成英文。我一直没以中文答复你，是因为我之前所用的电脑没中文书写功能。
我并非中国公民，但对中国所面对的问题也有所了解。正因如此，相比之下，西方媒体老拿来唱的老调子，对我而言，除了造成中西两极化以外，更无其他意义。
你以上所写的也是让我极为不忿、咬牙切齿。古人云：先天下之忧而忧，后天下之乐而乐矣。我相信没什么人能有这般高尚的情操、品德。但，生为人民政府，不为人民服务，却干些自肥的偷鸡摸狗之勾当，是领导的失职，体系的不健全。
你问我中国种种弊病、陋习该怎么解决，我也很想为中华民族的崛起尽一份力。。。对此我也苦思了良久。新加坡的成功模式能运用在中国的十三亿人口吗？取其原则，以环境来制定政策？
但把民主、言论自由、人权当作万能的脱困、反贪之妙药，那是西方的一厢情愿。什么人权、言论自由，这些只是西方媒体用来满足自己私利、自吹自擂所喊的口号，仅此而已。我非常认同你把这些数字、资料登到网上，与大家分享。这些才是真正需要大家关切、重视的问题。这些才是真正影响着中国十三亿人口的危机。但，出发点、动机要摆正。互联网便是一个最好的言论平台。
James,
If you are serious about anything Chinese,I strongly suggest you go and read this guy’s blogs.
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/indexlist_1461495187_3.html
He name is 杜車别.After you have read his posts,then you can understand why CHINA is still so much behind the West.
Other must read bloggers are 中山大学教授袁偉时.After you read his essays,you will start to understand a lot of 民國史, Sun Yet-Sen,蔣介石.
These 2 guys will open your eyes.
Ali baba,
thanks for you recommendation. his blog is indeed very interesting and insightful, after browsing it for the past 2 hours or so.
i have much to say, but let put it in short:
the author provides a historical perspective on how the chinese society has evolved. rather than saying CHINA is much behind the west, his blog told me how China has fallen from its great civilization peak. His criticism of the Qing dynasty and the philosophy of Confucianism is well warranted.
but before you jump the gun, and feel that a one party government equates totalitarianism, let me remind you the peak of Chinese civilization is during the Tang Empire. 白家争鸣， when there was a great exchange of ideas by 墨子，空子，法家等等 was during the seven warring states. Arguably, the greatest leader of the Chinese civilization is emperor Qin.
i have read the 3 books, what i called the trilogy of evolution of human civilzations, by jared diamond. you can just google him. 2 things to note: the chinese civilization peaked during the ming dynasty, while the west has been catching up since then (my own opinion :but ming’s closing the doors and qing’s many negative policies to rein in the people to strengthen her rule culminated in the humiliating period of 民国史。) That the US has prospered because their political system is decentralised and allow innovation and diversity.
my thoughts:
first point
to a certain extent, i do agree with Jared Diamond. but do bear in mind, like i stated earlier, the chinese civilization did not peak during Tang or ahead of the west during ming, because of democracy. A 1 party government or even monarchy does not equate curbing innovation, closing in on oneself, and stopping all flows of ideas. there is no one road to greatness. innovation, diversity, economic strength is not tied to any one political system/ideology.
second point
Singapore government wanted a clean environment, and so they imposed fines. a decade later, it is built into the people ethos that as a responsible and patriotic citizen, we should not spit, litter or vandalise. Take Switzerland and South Korea for examples. They imposed rules and regulations to enforce a painful waste disposal and recycling system on their people. years later, the people are grateful of the merits of such schemes. change has to be gradual and enforced at times and, most importantly, it takes time. give a poor people universal suffrage and the rich will start buying votes.
third point
the author, like 鲁迅， has much to criticise. Yet, there can be no doubt, they are patriots. I fully agree with his opinions on 鲁迅, that he is the spirit of the chinese people. for all i have read, i see a chinese civilization that needs to re-discover its own path to greatness again. the comparison is with oneself, not others. There is a need to learn the strengths of others, but not to copy.
fourth point
i am a great fan of history. in fact, all that plague us today have plagued great leaders in our history. we can learn from many of them. Cao Cao, 三国志， is whom i feel is the perfect leader of his time. He is both a 军事家、政治家。 he adopts 2 major doctrines, 唯才是举、依法治国。these doctrines are still very relevant today, perhaps even more so, in today’s chinese society which seems to act in complete opposite. his kingdom, even though he turned down numerous time to reign emperor, is the strongest among the three. of course, his son changes some of his policies, which ultimately lead to the Sima family taking over.
time has changed, people has changed, names have changed. but the same few principles to rule a nation, to a great civilization has not, though the paths maybe numerous.
鲁迅所批，所痛恨的是清朝的愚民政策。但它是有它的必然性的。change is necessary, but change has to be systematic and gradual. are the people ready for the change you have in mind? there is much to unlearn and re-learn for the chinese people.behind the west? for now, yes..
on the side, i do know quite a bit about being chinese. but i am most willing to learn more.
James,
Looks like I have found myself a history teacher,James,I am a history fan too.I used to like 金庸 a lot,but after I read 杜車别 ,I change my mind completely.
http://www.tecn.cn/thinktank/author.php?id=34
冯崇义 is another must read guy.He is a lecturer 现任澳大利亚悉尼科技大学国际研究学院中国学教授，中国部主任，南开大学历史系兼职教.
He is a no nonsense guy.
I know in Singapore,Malaysia,Indonesia,they are many people like you,who have received both Chinese and English education,can see both sides of a coin,so to speak.May be it is not too late to show the mainland Chinese the good,the bad,and the ugly of the West ?
http://www.tecn.cn/data/detail.php?id=18767
James,this one is a must read.
冯崇义 （进入专栏） 杨恒均 （进入专栏）
【前言：5月9日晚在悉尼科技大学中国问题研究中心的会议厅，举行了集演讲、讨论与座谈于一体的聚会。会议主讲人悉尼科技大学的历史学家冯崇义博士做了主题发言。正如冯博士在开场白笑言，看到学生杨恒均最近在网络遭到众多愤怒的爱国者和愤青的口诛笔伐和围剿，他这位做老师不能置之不理了。冯崇义博士从理论和实践两方面阐述了全球化时代的中国民族主义，与在座的青年学生和华人华侨推心置腹。当天参加会议的包括来自悉尼各界的华人华侨，特别值得一提的是还有来自悉尼新兰威尔士等大学的中国留学生，包括有组织到堪培拉保卫火炬的留学生组织者和代表。会议原定两小时，由于热烈的提问和讨论，直到四个小时后的深夜才散场。会议气氛和谐，虽然与会的华人华侨和留学生在重大问题上存在严重分歧，但大家却都认真听取对方意见，理智讨论，各抒己见。这篇文章是基于冯崇义博士的演讲，由冯崇义和杨恒均两人共同完成】
ali baba,
Yes, you are just a history teller. copy and tell just from a book. That can’t help you and others much. It brought you back to living in the history. :-)
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/3S8PbeCEZSM/
James,
血色湘西 a mainland Chinese TV drama,I quite like it.The ending no good.
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/26/china-cop-killer-online-hero-case-goes-on-trial/#comment-1507100
Chan,
Looks like you are wandering around,why not go to the above thread and put some comments there,nobody there but me.
ali baba,
thanks,no. I really got no interest in a “killer”.
Just carry on with your finger workup, it make you feel good… :-)
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f1510930o0p2.html
James,
I am watching 朱元章 TV drama on-line.
Very good drama.
Dear Ali baba,
thanks for wonderful gestures of sharing with me all these wonderful articles.
I am an aspiring computer scientist, and am a history fan just like you. technology is a tool, while knowledge of history will guide my hands in how best to utilise this tool.
history also empowers you to gain a level of consciousness of your existence, so that you may know your place in this world. while i cannot choose that i want to be born a chinese, and inherits a 5,000 year wealth of history and culture, neither can i choose to be born in singapore, where i am privileged to receive an east meets west education, but by understanding my heritage, my roots, it tells me how i should position myself in this world, and what purpose is there in my life.
jing yong is another author whom i most admire, looks lik we have much in common. i presume when you mentioned jing yong, you are referring to his social commentary articles. his novels has much depth that only as you begin to understand chinese history and philosophies more, you will begin to appreciate more and more. 其博大精深，真是让人叹服。。
as an example: jingyong novels embodies 道家、儒家、佛家 ideologies. 郭靖，死守襄阳，侠之大者，儒家思想。萧峰，舍身成仁，佛家思想。令狐冲,路见不平、随意而安，道家思想。。。
also, 入世不愤。。is also a DAO idea.
i am only beginning to get a glimpse into this world, so dont quote me as i may very well be wrong.
but one thing i am sure, jong yong novels get more and more real and down to earth as he matures. 张无忌is just like anyone of us, while wei xiao bao is really a mirror of real life.
Chan,
海纳百川，有容乃大。 we can all agree to disagree. let me tell you why this killer is so important, in my own opinion. you do know who 雷锋 is right? he is a real person, whose self sacrificing, is a product of the society of his time. he embodies what everyone in his time looks up to, and whom we should still look up to now. his very existence speaks volumes of what kind of a society it was then.
can you then imagine, how far down another path, that chinese society has deteriorated to, if 杨佳 is the product of the current day society.
sure these are individuals, but these individuals are real people moulded by the society of their times. yes, today there is also another hero that touches the hearts of millions, 温家宝。 but let me ask you, without the 豆腐渣工程 in the first place, is there a need for his heart wrenching rescue efforts?
it takes courage and intellect, to be a “history teller”. i dont think it takes much to resort to personal attacks, simply because someone else’s views differ from yours.
another thing that irks me endlessly, the Chinese netizens are just so quick to criticize and stone the olympic opening and closing ceremonies the moment they ended. 是语不惊人，死不休吗？ or is it because they have inherited the legacy of the chinese cultural revolution? to criticise and condemn is the only path to progress? critcism has to be constructive, and should be 对事不对人。
and come on, many of the netizens were not even born yet, when the cultural revolution took place.
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_571ca5930100a5gg.html
James,
Like I said before,I used to respect Jin Yong as a HERO,but not ant more.
韦小宝不是文学人物，它不过是一个畸形的意淫物，它不会让读者去思考，去反省，去拓宽自己的心灵，相反只是让人变的更加狭隘，更加愚蠢。
从什么都得到，什么都不放弃这一点来说，韦小宝这个人物是比最伪的伪君子还要卑鄙，比最小的小人还要恶毒。
眼光高一点的读者，能够跳出作者的圈套，能够不代入韦小宝的视角，而真正从旁观者的视角来审视这种叙述，审视韦小宝的行为。就必然觉得这一切的虚假，令人厌恶。但一些习惯于被作者牵着走的读者似乎除了自己代入韦小宝的视角之外和书中的韦小宝一起因为羞辱折磨某个对头喝彩叫好以外，就再没有别的感受了。
韦小宝谈不上作者塑造的人物，他身上不具备任何基本的人性，他不过是一个意淫的符号，意淫的道具，是一个牵线木偶，书中所有的角色也都是为了满足这种意淫而进行的拼凑，也同样是牵线木偶，他们的行为都不是出于人性的逻辑，自身性格思想的逻辑，而仅仅是出于凑合意淫，让这种意淫圆满化的逻辑。而那些看了鹿鼎记，欣赏韦小宝的人，也就一起成了作者的牵线木偶，被作者牵着鼻子走了。
Above essay is by 杜車别 .The more I read his essay,the more I think Jin Yong is full of s##t
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/D5r35fxc8P8/
James,
If you like 郭靖，死守襄阳 all these kind of story,you should really watch this drama 朱元璋 .This drama is 80% truth,20% fiction,whereas Jin yong is 95% fiction ,2% truth.
James Chua,
There is nothing wrong to reject an invitation to give my comments on a topic which I am not interested in. The killer is important to you, however it is not important to me.
志不同， 不相为谋，that’s all.
Thanks ali baba and you for your great 相声 peformance。
Please ultilise your knowledge and tools you have for the best of your satisfaction. 告辞了， both keep the ball rolling and enjoy it.
海纳百川，有容乃大。don’t even think that is 对人不对事.
hmm, i personally have not come across anyone that would approve of Wei Xiaobao, but i do think many will envy what he has obtained through despicable means. 虽说君子求财取之有道，真有那么多人就奉行君子之道吗？现在哪个贪官不也都流行养情妇吗?越贪，越多情妇。那么，即便，韦小宝这人怎么卑陋龌龊，多么惹人所不齿，但为什么却有这么多韦小宝呢?
jingyong is not depicting a hero, he is putting a real life character in front of us, someone whom we will condemn as a main character in a novel, but someone whom we will live with in the real world, simply because he is maybe our uncle, friend’s father or worse your family, or even worse, yourself.
鹿鼎记 poses us a question: do we see wei xiaobao in ourselves or among us? how would u treat such a person? if you detest this character, is it coherent with your real life attitude and behaviour? do you walk the talk?
James,
满清统治者除了对人民进行残酷的政治和经济压迫之外，在文化上也进行极权统治，对知识分子进行迫害和打击，以达到消灭异端，钳制思想的目的。众所周知，清朝的文字狱，次数之频繁，株连之广泛，处罚之残酷，超过以往任何一个朝代，秦始皇的“坑儒”与之相比也黯然失色。绝大多数的文字狱都是在“盛世”的康熙、雍正、乾隆三世，如康熙2年的庄廷的《明史》案，株连甚众，“名士伏法者221人”（陈康祺《郎潜纪闻》卷11）；雍正6年的曾静、张熙案不仅诛杀了许多人，充军了许多人，而且连死者都被开棺戮尸枭首示众。乾隆朝文字狱更是家常便饭，案件总数比康、雍两朝合计增加四倍以上。残酷的文字狱产生了恶劣而深远的影响。在此背景之下，知识分子要保证安全，只有走两条路，一条是做无实用价值的八股文，考科举，做官之后去压迫民众，另一条是埋头于故纸堆里，去做寻章摘句的考据工作。这两项工作无论做得多么好，都不能推动社会的进步，甚至还要阻碍社会的进步。还有，文字狱使满清政府跟人民的距离拉得更远了，人民对政府更痛恨，更不关心了。
满清统治者在文化上实行极权统治的另一个具体表现，就是以“御纂”和 “钦定”的名义对全国书籍进行一次大规模的审查，许多有思想启蒙意义的进步书籍被他们以“悖逆”的罪名加以删改。乾隆朝编纂《四库全书》时，就有许多书籍被进行了这样的“阉割”而让人们“不识庐山真面目”了，更严重的是大量的有价值的书籍被他们销毁。被销毁的书籍“将近三千余种，六、七万卷以上，种数几与四库现收书相埒”（章太炎《哀焚书》第五十八）。当代学者顾关元先生据海宁陈乃乾的记载，则认为所销毁的书籍是《四库全书》总数的十倍。因此，顾关元先生指出，满清统治者借编书的名义号召人们“献书”，而其实是大量地毁书，比行令强制毁书要高明得多，其目的不是在文化而是在政治。这无疑是中华民族文化史上一次空前大浩劫，其破坏性肯定是大大超过秦始皇“焚书”的。因为秦朝时中国的文化典籍毕竟有限，而清朝时不知要丰富多少倍了。可以说，象满清统治者这样的对文化典籍的整理，不要也罢，让那些中华民族几千年来的精神遗产保存在民间，将会更有价值。
James,I have collected a few essays on Manchu Dynasty’s evils.After I have finished reading these essays,I started to hate anything and everything which try to paint a rosy picture for the Manchu Dynasty.
Wei xiao-bao is just a fictional character,I know.But according to those essays I have read,Manchu Dynasty 260 plus years control of 中华,was the darkest time of 中华民族.In all the Jin Yong’s novels,those 康熙、雍正、乾隆 were presented as hero ,good guys,good kings,but in fact,they were monsters,butchers,murderers.
Just google 文字獄 ,you can find out what have they done in those 200 plus years.And 韋小宝 is a 奴才, when you have found out Manchus were turning all the 汉人 into 奴才,can you still identify with 韋小宝 ?
James Chua，
韦小宝 也有他正义，勇敢，有情有义的一面呀？ 您有看到吗？请问您的“海纳百川，有容乃大”何在？ 你不是在自相茅盾吗？
James Chua and ali baba is the same person ? 哈哈哈！有人就有江湖啊！是是非非， 自弹自唱。孤掌难鸣哪？he..he..both of you really sing the same song. I really have to respect you both for these.
chan,
even hitler has a good side
everyone has different weightage of good and bad. Heavier weightage of merits done is much more preferable. 海纳百川，有容乃大….
Dear Alibaba
i am quite familiar with what the Qing dynasty has done. as mentioned earlier, 文字狱 is a major part of the Manchurian empire’s overall 愚民政策.
there is indeed much literature, tv serials etc that blindly eulogize the greatness of Qing.
i remember when i read 鹿鼎记 at a young age, i was amazed by his fortunate encounters that work out in his favor. when i read it again older, i was disgusted by such a character. when i read it a third time, i asked myself is wei xiaobao then not a product of the society then? what kind of empire would allow such a person to rise to such great heights? it was then that i begin to awaken to the ills of the qing dynasty.
to paint an upright man like guo jing as a hero is easy, to paint an ordinary man like zhang wuji as a hero is difficult, as for wei xiaobao, it is even harder. if indeed in the world of wei xiaobao, he is perceived by those around him as a hero, what then has this world become? it has either gone blind or corrupt. how many wei xiaobaos then are there around that people are envious of, that people suck up to today in chinese society? but having said that, i must again emphasize that change takes time. corruption did not appear because it is the CCP in power. corruption is almost in the genes of our society today. it is so deeply rooted, that i dare say, even if today the CCP is to be toppled, by the people, the next political party, will also only be corrupt, regardless whether it is democratic or socialistic. hence, the solution is not a revolution. china has come far today, in a short span of time. we need patience for change and growth.
i am not sure, as i have not come across articles written by jin yong, about his views on the qing dynasty, but work of fiction should not be used as a basis for historical truth. just like zhu yuanzhang was never a member of 明教。nor 周瑜 as useless as it was depicted in romance of 3 kingdoms, or cao cao as villainous, or zhuge liang as omnipotent.
popular literature should never be misconstrued by the discerning reader as stating historical truth. on the contrary, a reader should ask what is the historical truth behind the fiction? that was why i read 三国志 after reading 三国演义，that is how i found out about 文字狱 after reading 鹿鼎记and watching many of those qing empire drama serials. in the process of awakening to the truth, we should not be hasty to condemn the authors of the popular literature that stimulate our interest. if we do not condemn 罗贯中 and even list his work as 四大名著, then we should not condemn jinyong because his work of fiction is historically inaccurate. literature works in a different way in our awakening, for me at least.
as for http://www.tecn.cn/data/detail.php?id=18767,
人权是否高于主权？
before elaborating further, we can safely claim that the modern concept of human rights really spark off after the french and american revolutions.
but let me ask 2 questions?
did america not abuse human rights in their indiscriminate detention and torture tactics used upon, of terrorist suspects in Guatanamo?
if we to trace further back, how were the aborigines treated by the european immigrants in australia when they first arrived?
honestly, i view the west behaviour as clearly having a double standard and highly hypocritical. america is justified to abuse the rights of these suspects, many whom i believed are wrongly imprisoned, simply because they are a threat to national security?
australia - i remember last year, when an australian was given the death sentence after being found guilty of drug trafficking. the australian government appealed to the singapore government to drop the death penalty, based on human rights. let me ask then, when dozens of australian lives were taken during the Bali bombing in Indonesia, and the terrorists were finally given the death sentence in the Indonesian court, why then the general feeling in australia was that justice has been served, and nothing heard from the Australian government of their usual stance against the death penalty?
let me trace history back to the time when the west first discovered the american continent. in the name of GOD, they started to colonize the continents, and directly or indirectly claimed hundreds of thousands of native american lives. note that GOD was the ruling concept among the masses then, just like human rights is the overriding concept among the masses in the western societies now.
so, to me, any concept any civilization may proclaim, must ultimately serve the will of the nations, and that national sovereignty/interest can never be superseded. to claim as an ideal that human rights supersede all is coherent with the overriding schools of thoughts of our time (note that philosophies change over time too, europe has always oscillate between the emphasis on our human existence and the afterlife in GOD’s kingdom). but to put it into practice, it will only be done so long as national interest is not compromised. do not be naive as to think that any society will compromise their own interest so as to serve universal human rights. just ask yourself why is the west so supportive of Kosovo’s independence from Serbia, claiming it as their democratic rights. yet, they so resist the independence of south Ossetia from Georgia? clearly, national interest is at play here.
chan,
even the most evil of people, assuming good and evil are well defined notions universally, like hitler, has a good side. some of the most corrupt potliticians, businessmen today are great family men. how else can their children be sent overseas to study in the U.S, stay in bungalows, buy LV and drive BMW? if you are atagonistic for antagonistic’s sake, i truly deplore such actions. i think it is more important to understand what is being said, before trying to be heard.
Chan,
正义，勇敢，有情有义的一面呀？ May be.
韦小宝 is a fictional character,any young boy can dream of becoming a 韦小宝 sometimes,if that is what make them happy.
But his boss,the emperor,was real,was not fiction,was total 暴君,tyrant,not 仁君.To find out how many Han 汉人 they have murdered,how many books they burned is not that difficult,just google 文字獄 ,楊州十日, 嘉庆三屠 ,in a split second those historical facts come rushing to you.
Chan,if you call yourself 汉人,using 汉字 for your surname,yet still treat 韦小宝 as a hero,then you might as well 認满清為父 ,and same as 認賊作父 ?
James Chua,
The Spirit of 雷锋 is needed in today Sciety, you have a very good point.
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_571ca593010090lc.html
乾隆时期的文字狱实在太多，不可能一一列举，这里引用黄裳一些话，“ 在乾隆中，诗文中最忌讳的是明字。李驎的(虹峰集》内有“杞人忧转切、翘首待重明’、‘日有明兮，自东方兮，照八荒兮，民悦康兮，我思孔氏兮，夜未央兮” 都是大逆不道的证据。戴移孝《碧落后人诗集》案中，连其祖父遗诗中“长明宁易得”句也认为是“悖逆显然”。官民的忌讳明字可以说是达到了神经错乱的地步。就连因私仇诬陷者也由此而捏造出莫须有的书名来如卓长龄等《忆鸣诗集》案（‘忆鸣’者谐音‘忆明’也）”
黄裳说他们忌讳“明”字达到神经错乱的地步，其实若说满清的奴才被主子的暴虐难测吓得神经错乱或许有之，但满清主子头脑应该还是清醒得很，他们就是要刻意制造这样人人自危，战栗发抖的恐怖气氛。
司马相如在《上林赋》里提到皇家打猎，光是被盛大阵势吓死和累死的野兽飞禽就无数。而康熙乾隆这些暴君希望的就是自己统治下的人们都象被围猎的猎物一样在恐怖气氛中觳觫发抖，战战兢兢，不用他们费力就自投罗网，战栗而死。
@ali baba 39,
Quote”Chan,if you call yourself 汉人,using 汉字 for your surname,yet still treat 韦小宝 as a hero,then you might as well 認满清為父 ,and same as 認賊作父 ?”
你的行为都不是出于人性的逻辑，自身性格思想的逻辑，而仅仅是出于凑合意淫，让这种意淫圆满化的逻辑。
I am just using or borrowing the name 韦小宝 as a tool t