Russian president Dmitry Medvedev announced the end of the so-called “peace enforcement” operation yesterday. LJ user varfolomeev66 - Radio Echo of Moscow journalist Vladimir Varfolomeev - asked this question on his blog: “What's next?”
He wrote (RUS):
I'm not referring to Georgia now.
The Russian government has used every serious crisis as a reason for yet another tightening of the screws and strengthening of its own positions. After the [Moscow apartment blasts of 1999], the [Second Chechen War] began, and Putin came to power. After [the 2000 Kursk submarine disaster] and then [the Nord-Ost theater siege in 2002], [ORT and NTV TV channels] were finally suppressed. After [Beslan school siege of 2004], regional elections were canceled.
What is the regime up to now?
Here are a few comments to this post:
oleg_kozyrev:
- Control of the internet
varfolomeev66:
Considering that there's almost nothing uncontrolled left, this is possible.
humanist_us:
They'll tighten the remaining screws on the internet.
And [Radio Echo of Moscow] ;)
Though you were definitely trying hard not to annoy our two dwarfs [with your coverage of the crisis]
Blogging from Tbilisi, LJ user oleg-panfilov - Oleg Panfilov of the Center for Journalism in Extreme Situations - posted the day's summary on his blog and explained (RUS) what the five-day crisis might mean for Georgia politically:
Today was the day of emotions.
First, an incredibly huge rally in the center of Tbilisi and people crying during Saakashvili's address.
Second, a day of waiting, while the politicians were discussing and expressing opinions on Georgia and its relations with Russia.
And finally, Georgia's departure from [CIS, the Commonwealth of Independent States]. For now, in the form of a political statement, but after a while, in a matter of a few days, Russia will automatically turn into an occupying force not just formally, but legally as well, because it will lose its status of a “peacekeeper” on behalf of CIS. And then, in accordance with all international laws, any presence of [Russian] troops on the territory of South Ossetia and Abkhazia can be recognized as illegal.
To put it differently, yet another military adventure has turned into [a nothing].
I don't know what kind of thinking overwhelmed Russian military commanders (of course, if there was any thinking involved at all), but Georgia has managed to endure and avoided getting back into the state it was in during the Soviet times. That is, a state of a [”large shashlyk restaurant”] for the Russian nomenclature.
If we analyze what's happened, we'll find many arguments both in favor of Georgia, and in favor of the imperial ways of today's Kremlin. One thing is clear, though - Georgia is not going to turn into a different country, it has tasted freedom in the past five years, has tasted democracy, despite the fact that many people do not like it.
Now it's up to other remnants of the Soviet empire whether they are going to continue living the way they did or will learn from Georgia.
Tomorrow is another day of waiting.
Below are a few comments:
mormegil11:
Georgia has lost South Ossetia and Abkhazia. When euphoria ends, gray everyday life will begin - without money transfers from [relatives working in] Moscow, without sea and air transport connection [with Russia], without working banks - and then the size of the catastrophe will grow larger than the size of the naive and excited crowd at the rally.
This war has no [winners or losers]. There is guilt, a feeling of enormous guilt before the dead ones: Georgians, Russians, Ossetians, Ukrainians, Dutch… And what is membership in CIS, or NATO, or anyplace else compared to this guilt…
rousyn:
“without money transfers from [relatives working in] Moscow”
Re-orientation of labor migration to the West? Isn't his progress? […]
realpushkin:
Oleg, you are wrong, unfortunately. […]
1) NATO countries and allies in general are not going to get themselves involved in a war with Russia, if it happens again - this is [counterproductive] for everyone.
2) Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not going to become part of Georgia even as autonomies - most likely, Russia will recognize their independence.
3) If it is proved that civilians died in Tskhinvali because of [the use of Grad multiple-launch rocket system] - Saakashvili will not have a chance to join [any organization]. […]
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This is a horrible thing for a bunch of reasons. For the Georgians it is the end of Democracy. For the Russians, it is the end of respect in the Global Forum. For America, it shows a weak country, unable to protect even the smallest country who we say are our allies.
My country is a paper tiger, and the allies that hate America like Iran and Venezuela will take advantage of this.
I predict this will get worse. Iran will attack Israel (or vice versa), Venezuela will attack Columbia, and Russia will continue its march to squish any pro-western ex-Soviet States, like the Ukraine.
The World is out of control, the UN is silly and I believe that we are on the brink of World War III.
I pray not.
Peace and Love to All
Torrence
Angel, you sound to pessimistic. All is not lost.
Stupid leaders make mistakes that cost their nation dearly. In this case, Georgeans will look back and comment on their actions, or that of their democratically-elected leader.
First, I am sorry for anyone that is forced to live through a war zone. I am Canadian, living right next door to the United States, and I must say to the Georgian people..OPEN YOUR EYES!! The United States is only buddy buddy and acts like a friend when it is in THEIR interest!! If you did not have an oil pipeline, or were sitting next door to Russia so that the U.S. could possibly put a future military base in Georgia, they couldn’t care less about you…believe me!! The United States through their propaganda machine CNN (and FOX) has threatened and pointed the finger at Russia non-stop through this entire ordeal, but when Georgia first attacked and bombarded the capital of South Ossetia, leveling it with heavy artillery, killing thousands of innocent civilians, I didn’t hear a single word of condemnation from the Americans! I remind you that your government started this by launching a massive military campaign against South Ossetia, which could not possibly have been planned overnight and must have been weeks in the planning just by it’s sheer size. So your government is lying to you! One could only expect Russia to retaliate, so you have your own government to thank for the consequences. The United States is the world’s biggest war criminal, liar, and hypocrit ! Don’t trust them!!!
Brian Pfeiffer
This is a stupid situation. I don’t like Russia but the way they acted was the only way for them and it was the only _legitimate_ way. They were effectively peace-keepers in the region, remember?
I hope Georgian president Saakashvilli has committed political suicide in this conflict. Staking people lives for the “democracy” is an oxymoron.
My worst upset from the last week was the reaction of US. I lost any faith in their politics.
If Russian had thousands of dead civilians they would’ve shown them on the first day they entered Tshinval. So, probably, they have several dozen dead, which are not men belonging to Osetia militias. I’ve seen Russian TV report(http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=143720), called ‘Georgian crack troops’ atrocities’ - no corpses. More then 25 thousand of S. Osetia women, children and old were evacuated before or in the very beginning of campaign, according to Russian authorities. Therefore, when Tshinval was shelled by Georgians, mostly Osetian militia and Russian “peacekeepers” were in it. And when Georgians took the city it was, in turn, shelled by Russians. And we all know too well Russian record of fair reporing and peacekeeping in Chechnya now, and in Afganistan, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and so on earlier. So, don’t believe propaganda, wait till they show 2000 dead, not just TV coverage. You’ll have to wait a long time.
Saakashvili opened his face.He is not democrat ,he is new Stalin.By the way osetian soldiers wanted to destroy Stalin monument in Gori,Georgia(one place where you can see monument to him)
This has obviously been something that Russia has been building up and planning for awhile now. There is no way logistically to have that many soldiers, tanks, combat aircraft & heavy artillery litterally overnight. It takes months to work out the logistics and build up supplies for this sort of operation. Not only did they have to support their “peace keepers” but also prep for the invasion. You just don’t flip a switch and everything is in place. You have to move food, water, ammunition, equipment and all that good stuff into strategic places so they are ready to support an invasion force the size of what Russia threw into Georgia.
Also, it has been confirmed that S. Osetia militia is also in Gori looting the people and setting up internment camps in various areas that have been captured, all the while Russian APC’s are blocking roads to prevent any media from entering the captured areas. The Russians are also barring foreign observors from entering the same areas so they can monitor the situation on the ground so they can either confirm or debunk any of the claims made. This only deepens suspicians that Russia has something to hide and that maybe there is a little truth to the stories coming out of Georgia about ethnic cleansing. All the while throughuot this cease-fire, Russia is violating their own conditions they set forth by moving troops into towns and abandoned Georgian military outposts. This has been confirmed by even the Russians that they are doing this. They 5hrs ago, began setting up positions if you look on a map that cut the country in two. By cutting off the main highway to the capitol, and capturing the country’s ports, they are essentially trying to drain the countrys economy in hopes of undermining the leadership.
However, as Shakashvilli stated and rings so true, no bullet, bomb or atillery shell is strong enough to destroy democracy.
As far as the international response , I am very disappointed in the United States & European Union. I expected a much harsh condemnation of Russia, however, I am glad to see that humanitarian shipments are arriving at the Tibilsi airport. Do I expect them to put combat troops on the ground? No, however, I would like to see an impartial international peacekeeping force to monitor the situation. But again, Russia will not allow this. Such an action requires a green light from the UN Security Council in which Russia holds veto powers and would most assuradly use them.
Would like to see the Georgian government release information on ways for foreign nationals to join their military in their hour of need to help repel the invaders. I understand our countries can’t commit their own troops because that would cause a serious escalation of the situation, but I myself, would very much want to stand by the Georgian people and help they defend their homes & most importantly, their freedom.
Every single Georgian is hero who are defending what ours against brutal forces of Russian murderers. Rusians wants to crash the whole Georgia and send the signal to ex-soviet countries and the west you will be next sooner or later because we Russians can.
Well, it’s open season on the United States again. Brian, you are living with too much anger and, apparently, it is convenient to blame the United States for your miserable existence.
Ask your friends outside of your bubble if America has been a friend to Canada. They will tell you that Canada has had NO better friend than the United States.
Are we perfect? Hardly. Have we made mistakes? To be sure. But we are far from the loathsome country painted in your misguided post. Maybe it’s time to cut back on the Molson’s.
I really hope that the people of Georgia get the aid they need to survive in this conflict with Russia, I seen the pictures which are horrible. For years Russia has been a big bully toward its former soviet union lands. I don’t believe the united states should interfere in the peace process I think we should allow the europeans to take charge toward this conflict. We the united states don’t need to go to war or get involved with russia it would spark ww3 for sure. I hope that this war stops and both sides can agree on something to solve this ongoing crisis.
I am a proud American and we do not like world conflict were not much different then the days of the Cold War Nuclear conflict is very much alive!!! But to my Canuck friend grow up, if it weren’t for the U.S. your country would be split in two the French Side and the English side, your still loyal to the British Crown anyway. Also the Canuk’s economy thrives on the back of America as well as your protection from foreign enemies. As for Georgia there is aggrevated aggression on there side as well as the Russians and the U.S. must tread lightly because those people in that region love to fight and bringing the two biggest boys on the street each for there own side would only spell Disaster!!!
I agree with some of your points. I think, however, most anti-American countries already know that the USA is stretched too thin to protect Georgia. Iran attacking Isreal? I seriously doubt it. USA would definately respond to that and Iran would be a wasteland afterward. I think you may be right, however, this move moves us closer to a global conflict. USA may be forced to respond to this crisis if strategists and analysis predict instability in the Middle East. Perhaps the USA should contain it’s global interests and stick to one region.
The situation in Georgia seems to be teetering toward ethnic cleansing. Russian and pro-Russian Ossetian troops going door to door is a recipe for disaster
And Brian - The U.S. is the “world’s biggest war criminal?” Really? Maybe you mean that expectations have not been met given a high standards for U.S. behavior.
Lawrence, AFAIK most hurt people in Georgia are actually South Ossetians, who actually suffered from conflict with Georgia, not Russia. Sure, the will get all the help they need: “The Pentagon, meanwhile, said it will be reviewing the needs of the Georgian military, battered in more than four days of all-out fighting with Russian forces over the breakaway region of South Ossetia.”. I think Georgians are out of shells now, right.
For years US propaganda became more and more pointless and now it can effectively compete with the one of Soviet Union in the times of Cold War. Please think a bit and consider many sources of information.
This is a geopolitical game, US considered with it’s “natural interests” in Caucuses, Saakashvilli worried about his role as a president and Russia worried about NATO expansion. No time to worry about people.
Anonymous, Russia fought a war with one gun for two soldiers, sending a few thousand troops overnight is nothing.
I hope anyone on this topic will ask themselves why they do believe what they do. I also encourage everyone to read some history of Georgia, Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
Russia and US are currently deep in information war against you and me. So don’t give up that easy. Russia has long history of imperial politics so has US. When
Sceptic, when you’re talking about Russian history in “Chechnya …, and in Afganistan, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and so on earlier” can you remember the role US played in Yugoslavia, Iraq and Afganistan now? :) BTW what do you know about Chechen wars?
The World is not so simple. And if anyone still thinks that US or Georgia or even Russia seek for a good of all of us i strongly suggest conducting a short reality check.
Speaking about Mikhael Saakashvilli… Just my 2 cents. This guy has serious personality problems and total lack of any kind of shame. He produces insane reports and being contradicted by Reuters’ and AFP’s correspondents being at the places he’s talking about doesn’t humiliate him a little bit. Truth is nothing, attention is everything.
There’s no “bad Russians”, “good Georgians” etc etc etc in this conflict. Things are MUCH more complex no matter how much you want to believe in simple explanations.
To you Americans,
If you want to debate the facts, I’d be happy to, but hurling personal insults is indicative of someone who obviously doesn’t have the facts and is incapable of intelligent debate. Canada has a French province of Quebec, who, for the past few years, has toyed with the idea of independence. Canada did not threaten them with a military response, but instead, aloowed them to hold a vote on separation. The vote failed. Had it passed, Quebec would now be independent with Canada’s blessing and best wishes. There would have been no conflict at all, had Georgia taken this attitude, and allowed the South Ossetians and Abkasians put independence to a vote. But instead, they attacked a territory who’s citizens have expressed a desire for independence, and if indeed, South Ossetia is part of Georgia, it’s military attacked and fired on it’s own people. Having done that, how does Georgia now expect to govern those areas, except by military occupation and marshall law? Do you think now that the South Ossetians will ever agree to be ruled by tblisi? Never! It is like a bad marriage, you cannot keep and control someone who does not want to be with you. But your attitude seems to indicate that you are the kind of man who would beat his wife for trying to leave. As for America being Canada’s best friend…you have obviously talked to very few Canadians on the subject, and most Canadians are too polite to tell you how they really feel. But we all still remember how Bush accused Canada of being responsible for 9/11, until it was revealed that the terrorists were from Florida, not Canada. We’re still waiting for an apology, and then to add insult to injury, Bush then threatened us with the case for war by saying “If you’re not with us, you’re against us”. One thing about living so close to the U.S., us Canadians have known for a long time that the U.S. does nothing for anybody unless there’s something in it for them. We keep waiting for the U.S. to pick a fight with us once their resourses run out, but we’re not worried about it, because up until Vietnam, the U.S. only lost one war…any idea who it was against?
This war although only five days long, marks the end of the strategic expansion of NATO towards Russia. A new dynamics will start and a new balance will be found. US has done too many stupid things and spend too much money they don’t have so if anyone such as those in Georgia still expect it to stand against Russia for them, think again. Ukraine and Poland are on the top of the list.
Saakashvilli is a joke and a stupid fool who practically ruined his own country. Now the two breakaway regions will be totally lost and there will be no bright future for that country for a while. In such a situation, common people suffers the most but they deserve it, considering that it was them who elected the fool who created the situation. As far as US and Russia are concerned, this is only one tiny step in there big plans and means nothing much at all.
Hooper,
I agree with you completely about Saakashvilli, he is a joke, but what else could we expect from an American educated lawyer? Of course he’s an American puppet, the same as Viktor Yuchenko in Ukraine and his American wife. But Ukraine would be an interesting dynamic, as they better be careful when they start issuing threats to Russia about closing their ports to Russian ships, ports that Russia has a lease to. Winter is coming and so before those dimwits in Kiev start issuing threats, they should be praying it will be a warm winter, or they run the risk of freezing their tushes off when Russia turns off the taps in retaliation.As far as a conflict with Russia, a civil war within Ukraine could be a more realistic scenario, since the country could be divided almost perfectly down the middle north to south, with Ukranians living in the western half, while the industrial eastern half and Donetsk region is entirely ethnic Russian. I really think the U.S. will find confronting Russia in a military showdown is a far different situation then attacking all these small countries like Iraq, Panama, Grenada, Vietnam and so on. Russia will be an opponent that can give them their monies worth and more.
Brian,
I don’t think Georgian are that stupid not to understand the true politics of the US-Russia power/muscle-flexing battle behind all this. They also understand very well that they are the playground of this filthy politics, but Georgia also understands that with its geo-political placement it has almost no chance of survival without the protection of one or the other. I completely agree with your points about the pipeline, but this is a matter of choice for Georgia and when you measure and compare the extent of brutality committed by the two countries the choice becomes clear.
I understand why you would resent American politics and you are by far not the only one in this, but if you had had the opportunity to experience and feel the direct impact of the viciousness of the Russian-led Soviet regime, you would understand why Georgia is so desperate for help today.
One more point about the pipe-line… yes, there is truth to it that if Georgia did not have the pipeline, the United States would not care less about the country… but I guess, all I can say is good for Georgia that it has the pipeline, because is not the world politics all about the bargaining power???
This whole deal is the US vs Russia. Both countries still have hate for eachother from the coldwar even though they both say they were trying to be allies in the recent years. It is still in the back of everyones minds. The reason i say this is between these 2 countries is because russia dont like that the us has placed those democracies in the ex-soveit nations. so there will always be issues between russia and the US untill they actually have a war. Which we all know that the US would definatly win giving no nukes are used. And i also this will be the start of world war three giving all of the tension between so many countries in so many different areas of the world.
I am Georgian and devastated with war is happening in my country. Unfortunately, there is Nothing I can do about it. Worse part is the world is just watching to see what’s going to happen next. It’s not a TV show people, someone has to do something. At some point Russia will turn to one of you with missiles and we’ll see how it feels. THANK YOU FOR NOTHING WORLD.
Dear Friends,
In regards to “puppets” of the world, Bush is the biggest of all ! He said that he has been running the US according to “Catholic principles and diplomacy” and that when he looked into the eyes of Benidict he “saw God”, and has apparently converted to Catholicism. So who is the real “trouble-maker” The Roman Catholic church under the control of the most evil Jesuit Order. They have been doing this for centuries, where there is or has been war, vietnam, Korea, San Salvador, Iraq, Aphghanistan, it is the work of Roman Catholicism in their bid to control the world ! On behalf of the Vatican, the US, trained the Georgeian military to do what they did, but it “back-fired”; the Russian legitmate response caught them totally by surprise !
But Rome neve has learned her lesson and Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and others are next ! The end result; The Papal New World Order is about to “self destruct” and will come to their end and “NONE SHALL HELP HIM” !
rich
Peace to everyone! What Russian gov. is doing is unacceptable in civilized society that we live in. Those like Putin do not belong to civilized society. He should have never been governing Russia. Medvedev is just a little lawyer, God only knows why he agreed to become Russian president and take this bloody murder that they are conducting in Georgia in his hands. Mostly drunk Russian soldiers that they supplied with weapons and alcohol to do whatever they wish to do with everyone living in Georgia. Those soldiers are like machines, they even do not know who they are killing and most importantly why. Putin MUST be brought to International Criminal Court for the war crimes and genocide against humanity and Russian gov must be out of G8.
For Mr. Lavrov and his government Georgia is just “illusory” project. They wish to turn a living people in to illusory Ghosts so they can seize the real land of the Georgian people. Because Russia only encircles half the globe, and it is not really enough. I think these people just have no souls. For them any small country or nation is just project for their ambitions.
Oh, This is for Brian:
My suggestion for you is maybe you will try and move to live in Georgia for a while. It will be great experience for you. You are sitting in your worm house in Canada and never felt what is to be without electricity, water, gas when Russians are cutting everything in the middle very cold winter. And when this kind of terror is going not one day or one week, even not for one year; when it goes for years. It is easy to judge others when you have never felt what it is like to be refugee in your own country; about 300,000 peoples were expelled by Russians from their houses in Abkhazia and South Ossetia and are refugees in their own country for 18 years. Oh, yeh, I think you would be much happier with such a good neighbor country.
Brian,
as far as the tension goes between Georgians and Ossetians…Georgia has always been a multi-ethnic country with mixed populations of Ossetians, Georgians, Abkhazis, Armenians, Jews, Azeris, Russians, etc living in Abkhazia as well as South Ossetia and other parts of Georgia. South Ossetians and Georgian never had anything to fight over, they never wanted a war and when you talk about the people living in South Ossetia (South Ossetians which btw Georgians never considered anything other than Georgians… I speak from the first hand experience, I am half Ossetian half Georgian), you are really talking about a very small portion of people that stayed behind whom Russia gave its passports after thousands and thousands of others were forced to flee and live on the territory of Georgia as refugees during the conflict in the early 90s… or Russian citizens that settled in there after that original conflict. These regions have become breakaway regions only because Russia inflated conflicts in those regions bringing in couple of greedy Ossetians and Abkhazians (every nation has traders that will choose their own interests over anything else, Georgians have had many of those too) to govern the regions and has continued to support these de facto governments politically as well as militarily. unfortunately, these conflicts have been portrayed as conflicts between Georgians and South Ossetians and between Georgians and Abkhazis, but anyone who has a better understanding of what exactly has been happening in Georgia since the disintegration of the Soviet Union will quickly realize that this has never been a war between Ossetians and Georgians. Russia has always had the same politics when trying to weaken its neighboring countries. It has always been notorious in inflating ethnic conflicts in its different parts so that no one country or nation would prevail or would ever think of uniting with another against “MOTHER RUSSIA”… I really hope you guys get a better picture of what is really going here.
Sending help to Georgia to fight against Russia not only would trigger WW3, but it wouldn’t save anymore Georgian people. As a matter of fact is, imagine what you see their now only hundreds of times worse. Any place where you have a war, no matter what country is fighting, is going to be devastated, and the longer and more aggressive it is the more damage. The worst thing you can do is pick a fight with a former Communist regime with strong Communist allies. As history shows, if there was WW3 triggered by a conflict between Georgia and Russia, believe me both would be blamed. For now the best thing is to send AID to Georgia, get in the way of Russian military without the use of violence.
Georgia: The New Berlin
To V’s point: This situation is the brink of WWIII. Picking a fight with communists or capitalists, at least by proxy, was the accepted world order for over 40 years.
With the fall of the Soviet state, the ‘communist’ label can be removed, but the rabid nationalism and desire of a return to imperial czarist glory are merely hiding under the new veneer of elections and the market reforms that brought the Russian Federation the capital it needed to rebuild and expand after languishing under the Soviet system. And those market reforms also made it a credible player in the “Great Game,” now ready to flex its political muscle through economic as well as military means like energy blockades.
And the US aid is, as you say, a means to hinder the Russian military. But it is a direct military intervention, and there is a risk of escalating violence. The aid will be delivered by US military air and sea transport, reminiscent of the Berlin airlift, to keep Georgia’s airports and seaports open. They will not be unprotected. Any provocation or perceived interference by the Russian military will be dealt with militarily.
Given the Russian military’s dismal performance,at least in military terms, so far, the professed Georgian support from the Ukranians, and a full-fledged NATO alert and response package available in Turkey, Tovarisch Putin would be playing a very risky card indeed trying to interfere with the aid packages.
Neither the US nor the Russians are in a position politically, economically, or militarily, to enforce their desired version of an end-game here. So I see a stalemate developing, and this the beginning of a new Cold War.
Russia has been backed into a corner over the last fifty years and I don’t think they truly understand just how dicey it can get when all their past sins can suddenly be revisited upon them. They are surrounded by a lot of hungry and pissed off lions of various sizes.
But honestly, what has Russia done for anyone since 1991?
If the international community feeds Georgia to The Bear, what do they get in return? Will Russia throw Iran to the US?
I doubt it.
Will Russia say something like, ‘Thanks guys, we feel secure now and we’ll stop acting belligerently towards the rest of Europe because we are not threatened anymore by the Americans!’
I doubt it.
How many other nations should The Bear get to eat?
I realize, of course, that if the US defended Georgia from the Russians, it would destabilize the entire Middle East even more than it already is, and more specifically, Iran and Pakistan. They’d be looking at a war involving all the land between the Nile and the Himalayas.
But still - I find Bush’s lack of concern for his partners in the “coalition” despicable.
I give the utmost of support to the Georgians.
Reading US press and listening to CNN reports all I can say: go watch “Wag the dog” movie
Hey grassroots
I know that Heaven don’t like the United States of America and European Union (Western) concerning intervention for oil war, terrorism and mass genocide. I have agreed and witnessed with this article concerning Western interests in Oil War, terrorism and mass genocide (Holocaust & Ethnic cleansing) for nearly two hundred and thrity years…
I acknowledged that Judeo-Israeli invaded and massacred people of Alexandria (Egypt) in 2,500 BC for first holocaust like Modernist Judeo-Christians and Zionism (AIPAC and American Jewish) (for example of Jewish ordered Rome King to kill Jesus Christ)
I acknowledged that Jesus Christ is not interested to make religious sect about religious matter, just social harmony. Next James Christ is youngest brother of Jesus and He is only first Kingdom of Eastern Orthodox Christian and has been conflicted with Judeo-israeli for sixty-five years).
I don’t like Dictator Jewish and Zionism (American Jewish) concerning genocide and ethnic cleansing over European culture that corrupted and destroyed the Rome Republic and Rome Empire, Saxony, Slavic, more…
You know that American Revolution murdered and destroyed the people over the British colonialism in 1770… I saw the history of spanish war that American invade the spanish land (Mexico) in 1812 for ethnic cleansing over spanish people… I also witnessed that American destroyed Native Indian to completed ethnic cleansing for sixty years…
I saw that the history of US imperialism and aggressors over Phillipines, Europe, Latin American, South-eastern Asia, Canada, Alaska, Central American, Africa, Northern Asia, so on for promote a war (opium, natural resources and oil), fraudlines liberal democracy and ethnic cleansing for American culture (by Hollywood celebrities, Western media and American separatists) for nearly one hundred and thirty years since 1800s…
I know that people don’t understand what is democracy (American position mean liberal democracy to political corruption, plutorcacy, and kleptocracy? what is civil liberties (American enjoy to destoryed the civil rights for a completed missing…)? what is human rights (American enjoy to kill the people over many years since now)? what is freedom (mean not free, controlled by American and European position)? what is faith (mean loyal and knee to American and European position)?
I saw Western media culture (controlled by the US and British Department of Defense, State, CIA/MI5 and White House) is biased, complete destroyed, and makes the people the easier forget and so dumb ever for sixty years… Western NGO and other organisations (Hollywood Celebrities over Save on Darfur, Western Oil Companies (almost profit over $1.5 trillion for nearly seven years), Human Rights Watch, USAID, Amnesty International, Freedom House, MSF and so on)is played to promote the western mafia style for a war and ethnic cleansing for sixty years….
I feel warned concerning US Presidents (like Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin) dreamed to destroyed the people around the world by the mass of assured destruction (MAD) and the Atomic bomb. You see that USA is destroyed Hiroshima and Nagakasi over Mass of Assured Destruction in 1945 and Biological weapon over Vietnam, Iraq and Africa… I know that French President Sarkozy didn’t reduce to destroyed Atomic missiles since April 2008 and He’s bastard liar… I thanked Irish voters who rejected over EU Referendum, but others…
I did vote but didn’t vote the candidate of my local resident area for nearly twenty years… I pledged you and your people to overthrown United States Governments & Congresses & Senators, European Governments & Parliaments and Jewish Zionism organisations in the 21st century. Don’t blind over western expansionism and fight to them for our rights, NOW… Heaven need to settle the world harmony down for the peace…
I support criticisim of Alfred Wallace (Naturalist), Noam Chomsky, Robert Friedman, Marxism/Leninism/Maoism (Mao’s Democracy) and Keith Harmon Snow over Western imperialism, colonialism and aggressors
I am really sympathetic to the Georgian people. However, in the grand scheme of history, what happened there wasn’t too important. Let’s look at what went wrong anyhow. Georgia, a small country stand in between the two super power NATO/US and Russia has made a bet that Russia is still weak and US will come to the rescue if things go wrong. It didn’t pay off. It would be better for Georgians to play US against Russia and verse versa. It is easier said than done but it is the only way. The bigger mistake is that they really believed democracy will be the solution to all the problems, which couldn’t be more wrong. It is only a way of selecting leaders. Democracy requires the citizens to understand the problem and participate in the process and take responsibility. However, in most cases, public are ignorant and have been abused. Just look at US. Bush stayed for eight years and ran the country into the ground. The new election became a popularity contest while the only candidate, Ron Paul, who touched on the root of the problem was not even in the picture. It is just sad.
It is my feeling that the global balance of power has a lot of undercurrent, with US entangled in housing problem, iraq, with Russia building up wealth through energy industry, with China trying to rebuild as the central empire, with Euro zone looking to integrate themselves. When all these power collide, tragic events such as the one in Georgia will happen.
For Nino and Tamuna and Katie,
I am sensing you are Georgian, so I understand your feelings but I still cannot agree with Georgia’s actions that started this situation when they attacked South Ossetia and leveled it’s capital with heavy artillery, killing thousands of innocent civilians. I was appalled at the Georgian citizen’s reactions to this on T.V. What did they do? They celebrated and were dancing in the streets of Tblisi over the deaths of Ossetian women and children. That is where I lost all respect for Georgia.It seems Georgia is also still living in the past, South Ossetia and Abkhasia are now lost to you, and the only way for this situation to end is for Georgians to accept that fact and move forward. As I said already, you cannot hold onto a territory and people who do not want to be part of you. They have been on their own more than 10 years now and still Georgia continues to think they can take them back by force. It will never happen, so accept it. The best solution would be for a U.N. to supervise a vote for independence in those regions and everyone abide by the results. I must confess, I am Canadian of British/German heritage, but my wife is Russian. I believed for many years like everyone else in the west that Russia was the “evil empire” because like most people,I believed every word my government and the American government told me. After marrying my wife, I got to go to Russia on many occasions and see Russia and Russian society for myself. Before you all sit here and talk about how terrible Russia is, perhaps you should visit it and see for yourselves. I think you would be surprised. I also have traveled every part of the United States as a truck driver and so I had an opportunity to compare both societies and attitudes for myself. I have discovered that it is America that is the real “evil empire”. Most of the pornography comes from America and their crime rate is among the highest in the world. Besides sex, America also has a love affair with guns, war, and killing. Just look at their films, they all have a “Rambo” mentality and it is right in their constitution that they can all carry guns and they do! If you look at America’s history, they have ALWAYS been at war with somebody, and going to war is a right of passage for them. They always need a “bad guy” in the world to justify their existence.Just ask yourselves why America spends trillions every year on their military. Now they are trying to surround Russia by putting missiles and military bases on Russia’s doorstep to some end game, and small countries like Georgia, Poland, Ukraine, etc. are allowing them to do it. I can still remember the U.S. was ready to go to war when Russia was going to put missile bases in Cuba. Now they want to punish Russia by kicking them out of the G8 and taking away the olympics from Sochi. These kinds of “tit for tat” actions will solve nothing! Russia will simply shut off all energy supplies to the west, and everyone’s economy in Europe will go in the toilet. As for the ridiculous comment that the U.S. and Nato would defeat Russia in a war, that is absurd! First of all, Russia’s closest ally is China who has no warm feelings towards the U.S. whatsoever, and Russian and Chinese military together is 10 times larger than U.S. and Nato combined. But having said that, I agree with Albert Einstein’s comment, something like, “I don’t know what the first war in history was, but I know which war will be the last one, ww3″. He meant that there would be no winners. Does everyone not understand that the U.S. may have the most high tech military in the world, but Russia has the most nukes. You do the math. The U.S. is playing a very dangerous game threatening Russia. The U.S. has made so many of these “War hero” Rambo movies that they start to believe their own bull. I think the world would be a much better place if the U.S. would quit trying to be the world police and keep their noses out of everyone’s business.
Brian,
The key here is to keep WWIII from erupting. Should the US back off supporting Georgia because “Russia has more nukes?” In case you don’t remember, American nuclear strategy towards the Russians is MAD: Mutually Assured Destruction. Either side could destroy the planet with a fraction of their nuclear arsenal. Of course, since you’re counting warheads, maybe you should go to the Ukraine and ask them how they feel about giving Russia back their thermonuclear warheads given the current situation.
No one is going to “push the button.” What needs to be avoided is a protracted global conflict with conventional weapons.
Russia and China? Puh-leeeeeeeease. That new-found coziness has Hitler-Stalin written all over it. And Russians remember what happened the last time they did a deal with the devil: 20 million Russians dead fighting their ‘allies.’
As far as pornography goes, perhaps should should stop picking up DVD’s in American truck stops, and try some Russian porn…it’s all over the Internet.
to ppavel:
16
>I hope anyone on this topic will ask themselves why >they do believe what they do. I also encourage everyone >to read some history of Georgia, Abkhazia and South >Ossetia.
Hopefully not written by Russian and Russia-affiliated historians :)
>Russia and US are currently deep in information war >against you and me. So don’t give up that easy. Russia >has long history of imperial politics so has US. When
>Sceptic, when you’re talking about Russian history in >“Chechnya …, and in Afganistan, Hungary, Czechoslovakia >and so on earlier” can you remember the role US played >in Yugoslavia, Iraq and Afganistan now? :) BTW what do >you know about Chechen wars?
I agree about US role in Yugoslavia and Afganistan - it was crap, they shoudnt’ve fought for the muslims. They’re reaping the harvest in Iraque and elsewere now. And stupid Europe will reap it later for Kosovo, for sure. As for Chechnya - I support attempts to drive away islamist militia out. The way it was, and being presently done can’t be supported, as well as giving the power to loyal, as for now, bandits, thugs and kidnappers. Russia did in Chechnya exactly what it accuses Georgia of - cleansing and indiscriminate killings - but Georgians didn’t do it.
The World is not so simple - right. Everyone is in shit. But some deeper then the others. And everyone pays and will pay for their actions, including US, Georgia and Russia. And in this particular case, Russia will have to pay a lot more then the others. And internal freedom and external isolation will be the most heavy price.
Speaking about Mikheil Saakashvilli - it’s internal Georgian problem, which they created and will take care of themselves, as serbs did with Molishevich, and Iraqies should’ve done with Saddam, if not for American idiocy. It just doesn’t work. Good luck to Russia with their leaders - you’ll need it more then many others, it seems.
Brian:
You seem to be on the wrong side of many points here but thanks for starting my day off with a laugh.
Bush claimed Canada was responsible for 9/11? Hahahahaha.
Bush threatened Canada with WAR? Stop it man, you’re killing me with this stuff.
Do you want to fight with Russia for Saakashvili?
I understand that american kids teaches with mother milk that Russia is big bear who will invade to US.Honest to say it`s funny to see how adult people support person who killed and destroyed almost all S.Osetia
Brian,
What are you talking about? I have doubt you met that part of Russian society which are real patriots of Russia. They are terrorized by Russian government in their own country like Georgians are now. Russian Oligarchic government kills anybody who has different opinion. Last few years they killed about 250 journalists. Hooray Russian GOVERNMENT!!!
It was stupid from some Georgian dancing in this period, but I assure you nobody danced their because of people dying. They were dancing that they thought the help was coming. I am Georgian and I myself grow up in Ossetian Family in Tbilisi. Could you imagine what my ossetian cousins and I going through?
I am reading all of previous. Well… US (and servants) - it’s US, Russia - is Russia, and there is no chance to be a REALLY friends, - the only thing I picked up from discussion. We do not hear each other, simply miss the arguments we don’t like (or nothing to react), etc., etc. Just even can not think about made very small step from firstly occupied position (or better say - “firing position” ?), and be agree with opponent.
God, bless the world - I see, it,s really hard job even for YOU….
Nino: I am patriot of Russia. I have a diffrent opinion - still a live. I defend the Vilnius TV tower from SOVIET tanks, but I am very supporting RUSSIAN tanks defending Osetai from that maniacs under drugs who crushed hospitals and scholls and burned children alive.. I know, nearly all the world still not understand that RUSSIA not a USSR. Or do not want to understand - because it is more convinient.
I will say nothing about life in Georgia - simply because I am not a CNN - and never discussing a matter having even not a clue about…But I have a very serious doubt which country in the world will deliver Gergia gas, oil, electricity, etc., free of charge and taking back only all the words your MIKO said about us… And by a way you know a lot about real life in Russia? Not only about Moscow and not from Rustavi TV?
Chris,
right on man!
Brian,
wow, I tried to explain a course of events to you and get through to you somehow, but I now am sure you are HOPELESS!!!!
ha ha haa, you went to Russia on a vacation couple of times and now you understand everything???? wow, now thats an evidence that will really cement your argument… I wonder what your reaction would have been if you ever witnessed skinheads slaughtering every single foreigner crossing their way???
Yeh, Alex, I know little bit a life in Russia form other Russians and from the my experience as well. MY friend was stabbed in Moscow by some crazy nationalists in the way to his apartment while he was talking on the phone to his wife. The wife is Russian. You know why he was killed? Because he was little bit dark. They did not know who he was, what kind of nationalty. He had not Russian appearance. My cousin lives in Moscow, her husband is Russian, but their baby looks like little bit Georgian. She told me that she decided to take him very expensive kindergarten, because she didn’t want that teachers in the ordinary kindergarten called him “chornajopim” i.e “Black Ass”.
I don’t say that every Russian is like that, but your Russia is worse than USSR. Ok. Do you think they are defending anyone? My friend’s family lives in one village in Tsxinvali region. They said that Russian “Peacekeepers” were shooting for two weeks intensively towards Georgian villages, before this started. They punished all Georgia, for defending themselves. They killed much more people in Georgia then they say. They made trash from all Georgia, like your informational systems bragging. Why are they still killing and robbing people right now after “cease-fire”? What do they want now? Why they don’t leave know? Why they killed our women in 1989, why they expelled 300,000 people and killed thousand in 1990 and 1992, If you are NEW RUSSIANS and not new Soviets. Who is doing Genocide now? May be you will watch NASHA ARMIA on youtube.com. Remember it is Russians tanks on Georgian territory killing civilians not Georgian on Russian territory. Who cleansed Georgians from KOdori now?
Sceptic, there’s no such thing as “internal problem” in the modern world as many recent conflicts shown. And I strongly disagree with you on the point that “everyone will pay for one’s sins”. It’s just not the case.
In the case of Georgia/Ossetia/Russia what I know (from the people who were in Tskhinvalli) is that the city was shelled in the night. If you think that Russian “aggression” or “military operation” or whatsoever is unexplainable - ok, good for you.
I’m not felling myself like being in one boat with Russia and don’t want to be. I strongly dislike it’s domestic policy, the way it holds elections, the direction it strives to develop - the list goes on. Lot of my ancestors were killed by communists too. I just consider all this information as irrelevant in this particular case.
What I see in this case
- the region that was always like Balkans but strongly influenced by Russians for the 20th century and relatively stable
- US seeking for expansion of it’s influence in the region and decreasing the influence of Russia (which is a bit closer btw). They do so by sponsoring local regimes with money and military supplies and training
- Georgia that has elected hysterical president who is ready to stake other’s lives in hundreds if not thousands
- Russia that is not prepared to just give up it’s influence in the region
- South Ossetia and Abkhazia not prepared to be a part of Georgian territory
What’s exactly wrong with Russia’s activity in Georgia? Did they kill a lot of people? Did they destroy Tbilissi? What was there expected way of acting? Silently watch? Do you expect them to just give up in this game? Do you think that the entity like Russia just doesn’t have any right to exist (btw I do think so)?
Please sketch your solution to the problem.
I live in the USA. My father was Georgian. I have been to Tbilisi and stayed with my Georgian relatives.
If there is any honest left in the media, they should ask the average Georgian citizen - what they think of Russia. It is my understanding that Russia has tried for decades to destroy and control Georgia. My father said he had to stand with a gun at night in the streets to protect his town from Russians in 1918 or so, when the Russian Revolution began arriving in Georgia.
My Cousins owned a house in Abkhazia, - they told me “You have no idea - how beautiful it is!” I imagined it to be like Acapulco, with tropical lush greenery, beautiful mountains touching the Black Sea.
It is my understanding that Muslims and others started arriving in Abkhazia,… after a while - they “declared” that this was now - “their land”….
In 1990-92 or so they told every Georgian there - they had about 10 days to “get the hell out” or be killed. And so the killing began. People had to walk through the woods - carrying whatever they could. Needless to say, my family lost their home there, - just like that!
They say the Russians sent themselves there as “Peace-Keepers” - but the truth is (Ask Georgians themselves) - the Russians were the ones supplying the guns and ammunition and desperately seeking the Georgian Resort area of Abkhazia - which they “took” - as is there custom “to take” from Poland, Estonia, Latvia - etc. etc. The Russians ARE NOT PEACE-KEEPERS - .. they are soldiers there - with the sole mission - of keeping the Georgians OUT. You now must pass Russian customs, have a Russian passport - etc. - to go to a GEORGIAN resort area - that has been stolen from them.
Also - my cousin’s husband - had a younger brother - who lost his life about 15 years ago - trying to fight for Georgia.
I am ashamed of the USA - for many reasons, especially Geo. Bush, who should be impeached, water-boarded and jailed - but also - because WE are the beacon of alleged sanity, democracy and peace (until our criminal invasion of Iraq) - … We should be sending REAL peace-keepers into Georgia - as should the UN. Get Russia - the hell out of there!
Katie,
Georgia brought it on themselves. Not a single Georgian here has said a word about the fact that Georgia started the present conflict by launching a massive military operation against South Ossetia last week in the middle of the night! It seems now that Georgia is still living in the past and trying to pay back Russia for acts of the past Soviet era. For example, they are trying to mix economics,and sport with politics. It is a fact that Georgia blocked Russia from joining the WTO, a childish act, just to pay them back. What the hell? So Georgia thinks the way to get back at Russia is by trying to prevent the average innocent Russian civilian from a chance at a better life? It’s all bullshit! Now there is talk to take the 2014 olympics from Sochi. Today Poland signed the deal to put American missiles on their soil which everyone knows is aimed at Russia, I’m sure as some kind of way to slap Russia in the face. Russian leaders have been much more restrained than I would be if I were Russian present, because just as Kennedy did in the Cuban missslie crisis, I would be telling Poland “If you begin construction on the missiles site today, our tanks will be parked in downtown Warsaw tomorrow morning!” It seems everyone now is trying to tweek the nose of Russia and aggravate them as much as possible for issues of the past. But be very careful of the games you are playing..if you poke a wounded bear enough times with a stick, sooner or later you will get biten. Perhaps Russia should just say to the world and Europe, “To hell with you..if you don’t want to deal with us, then you don’t want our oil, gas, and other resources, we’re closing all the taps!” That in fact, would look great on those big mouth Ukranians, let them freeze their asses off this winter. But Russia I don’t think is too worried about the missile base in Poland, Russia has enough nuclear missiles for everybody. Poland now would be the first place they incinerate, because agreeing to the missile base just painted their country with a great big red bull’s eye! When ww3 begins, you can all take your last 5 minutes to say ” Gee…maybe we pushed Russia too far…”
In this ugly situation, nobody is innocent. It is almost funny to see some people try to weigh who is more evil. Everyone is to be blamed for the loss of life and peace, including Georgians, Russians and Americans. Those who are in a “democratic” country, should ask yourselves, have you done your part to stop the madness and can you really do anything. Yes, I have lost my faith in democracy.
Rusudana, I’m sorry if this hurts your feelings (which I can understand), but this just gets ridiculous.
Media should ask Georgian people? And get what? Your understanding is that Russians in decades tried to destroy Georgia? So you have huge ego, not understanding, pardon me here.
The lot of minor countries (like Georgia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia etc etc etc) get those self-identification from confronting Russia. C’mon guys. Russians are responsible for all your troubles? Wake up! If not Russia it would be anybody else with enough power. Probably, Turkey. This always been this way, I don’t like it, you don’t like it but this is what things are like. I hope this will change but there are no signs of this, rather the world goes straight in opposite direction. We all have yet to see the raise of China and Islamic countries.
What Georgia makes it’s living from for a last decade? Where money come from? Where weapons come from? You traded your territory, your independence and your loyalty to NATO and especially United States, so be prepared to take consequences. I personally think you made a good choice but there’s no free cheese. Do you think US is the paramount of good will? Really? Are you sure? How about Iraq wars? What are those americans doing in Afghanistan? What they did in Vietnam? This things were said million of time but some people just fail to get any comprehension.
If I’d to choose right now my choice will be not Russia nor US. Russia is (thanks God!) not a Soviet Union, but United States are not the ideal of democracy and freedom either. Those two powers are here to collide until one of them (most probably Russia) will collapse. But it’s too early for mice to play in front of cat (or bear if you prefer). Welcome to the real world.
One more thought… Just let dream a bit… What the world will look like if Europe, Russia, and North America will unite to form the North Alliance? The state where the Sun never sets! :) The most resourceful and powerful country the world ever seen :) I even can name a couple of reasons for this but these are left as an exercise to the readers :)
Instead we’re still playing “world dominance” games.
Ppavel: are you from KGB or what? Don’t you understand that we (Georgian People) are in deep pain because of Russians’ “friendship”? Leave us alone? Russians are killing young generation of Georgians once in every decade. Maybe it is history for you and others, but it is realty for us. I am 38. They killed thousands of people of my Great grandparents’ Generation; they killed thousands of my grandparents’ generation, THEY killed thousands of my parents and my generation. AND now they are KILLING MY KIDS Generation. Who do need Russians’ gas or anything if Georgians will not exist? It is Genocide what they are doing and nobody cares about this. We would not be in this situation if world could stand up against Russinas in 1990 and 1992 when they commited genocide against Georgian people living in Abkhazia and Samachablo (S. Ossetia is name communists gave to this region).
Brian I hope WW3 will not begin till i die. Not that i’m in hurry :) Before global war nukes are what they are - MAD weapon, the last resort. Conventional weapons and forces can not be eliminated and Russian Army is currently just a shadow of what Soviet Union had.
The following is not directly related to Ossetia/Georgia conflict where I think Russia acted the only way it could and did it surprisingly good and fast whatever the world’s reaction is.
I really can’t think of anything West can do about Russia now. Russia gains power on oil prices and national consolidation. And for Russia more power all too often means more aggressiveness. This is sad but this is true. Every powerful nation should have the ability to enforce it’s interests, that’s ok. What troubles me is the question “what Russian interests really are?” Lot of people in Russia have the idea that they lost the Cold War and are looking forward to strike back. This is scary. Last Russian elections were badly manipulated but i’m absolutely sure that even without manipulation the net result will be the same. This the kind of mentality to go own road, preferably showing Kuzka’s mother to others on the way.
Maybe this is just the matter of time, a couple of generations and a few decades of economical prosperity will change people’s minds, maybe… Current “new Russians” (not those gangsters from 90s, just economically active people) have no interest in imperial ideas. All they want is stability, property, safety and freedom to do their business.
The personal freedom for everybody is not so high on the list though. In this aspect Russian mentality is much closer to Eastern. The value of personal freedom is minor compared to the “common interests”. This “common interests” is a perfect point of manipulation and the history of 20th century shown this clearly. I mean communists, Nazi, fascists etc. Sometimes I feel like Russians want to be manipulated.
Probably countries like Georgia will hail the idea to destroy Russia completely by military force because it deserve it :) Ales, that’s too costly in terms of lives and probably this operation will destroy these countries in the first place :)
To Rusudana: Looks like you speak honestly, but a problem is that you know nothing about that region and history.
Just some:
- Abkhasian - not muslims (it is not Kosovo, they are not Albanian relatieves)
- they not arrived in XX century, they lives there for ages
- In Abkhasia also living a lot of nations - greeks, armenian, jews, russian, ukranian, etc.
- this conflict is based very far in history. Asks georgian about how many osetians they killed in the beginning of XX century. I told you - thousands and thousands…
So, it’s usial American way - I do not have even a clue about, but sure what I am right any way.