Comments on: South Ossetia: Did Kosovo set a precedent? http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/ The world is talking. Are you listening? Tue, 29 May 2012 17:49:45 -0400 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Brett http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-1510403 Brett Mon, 01 Sep 2008 19:38:39 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1510403 Richard Falk has a sound assessment and interpretation of this mess... http://www.transnational.org/Resources_Treasures/2008/Falk_GeorgianCrisis.html Richard Falk has a sound assessment and interpretation of this mess…
http://www.transnational.org/Resources_Treasures/2008/Falk_GeorgianCrisis.html

]]> By: Brett http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-1509224 Brett Mon, 01 Sep 2008 02:22:59 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1509224 I think "equivalent" might overstate things. I suppose in terms of the international law, yes these are equal violations of state sovereignty, though Moscow claims this was about saving Russian nationals, which some hold as a lawful use of force, but the nature of the insertion of these nationals over the last decade, and the clearly overstated claims of genocide renders the argument as suspect as Bush's moral claims about Iraq. In Kosovo, there was a clearer and higher level of cleansing, but both were cases of "counterinsurgency" of a sort. More to my point above, however, is that the Kosovo helped pave the way to Iraq, which helped pave the way to South Ossetia. I think “equivalent” might overstate things. I suppose in terms of the international law, yes these are equal violations of state sovereignty, though Moscow claims this was about saving Russian nationals, which some hold as a lawful use of force, but the nature of the insertion of these nationals over the last decade, and the clearly overstated claims of genocide renders the argument as suspect as Bush’s moral claims about Iraq. In Kosovo, there was a clearer and higher level of cleansing, but both were cases of “counterinsurgency” of a sort. More to my point above, however, is that the Kosovo helped pave the way to Iraq, which helped pave the way to South Ossetia.

]]> By: Tulio L. http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-1508151 Tulio L. Sun, 31 Aug 2008 04:12:20 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1508151 It is evident that the case of Ossetia is equivalent of Kosovo. Let's check the facts: 1. Servia invaded Kosovo to restore by force its sovereignity on the area. So did Georgia on Ossetia, destroying much of its capital. 2. NATO attacked Serbia while she was dealing with internal affairs sovereignly on her borders. That action was important to spare albanian lives on Kosovo. So did Russia on Georgia. Also that action was important to spare Ossetian lives. It is also evident that the Bush Adm reaction is a concrete proof of a cynical policy of 2 weights, 2 measures. Unfortunately, the reckless, careless, handling of the Kosovo affair will cast a long shadow to the future... It is evident that the case of Ossetia is equivalent of Kosovo. Let’s check the facts:
1. Servia invaded Kosovo to restore by force its sovereignity on the area. So did Georgia on Ossetia, destroying much of its capital.
2. NATO attacked Serbia while she was dealing with internal affairs sovereignly on her borders. That action was important to spare albanian lives on Kosovo. So did Russia on Georgia. Also that action was important to spare Ossetian lives.
It is also evident that the Bush Adm reaction is a concrete proof of a cynical policy of 2 weights, 2 measures.
Unfortunately, the reckless, careless, handling of the Kosovo affair will cast a long shadow to the future…

]]> By: canadian bear http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-1507847 canadian bear Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:03:05 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1507847 to Saratov: Good point! Agree 100+% to Saratov:

Good point!

Agree 100+%

]]> By: Saratov http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-1506852 Saratov Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:46:03 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1506852 The Geopolitical World is definitely changing Poles, from “A Polar” to “Bi Polar”, and maybe in the future to “Multi Polar”. That means we are moving from a “DICTAT” to “DIALOGUE”, and maybe in the future to the “CONVERSATION”. The Geopolitical World is definitely changing Poles, from “A Polar” to “Bi Polar”, and maybe in the future to “Multi Polar”. That means we are moving from a “DICTAT” to “DIALOGUE”, and maybe in the future to the “CONVERSATION”.

]]> By: Phil L http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-2/#comment-1506330 Phil L Tue, 26 Aug 2008 04:09:15 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1506330 The U.S. is very responsible for Russia's return to (old school politics) with its satellite countries. Mind you, I am not proud of this at all. If you recall, the US was trying to work with the UN to get Saddam Hussein to allow the nuclear inspections resume. Saddam ended up giving the US, "the finger." However, the US should've really had an international coalition before going into Iraq. We should've also made sure that our facts were accurate in regards to the intelligence we had. The fact that we, "John Wayne'd" the invasion into Iraq, does give some credence to Russia's desire to mettle with the affairs of Georgia. If you add to that, the d.o.i of Kosovo & how we lobbied countries around the world to honor that, basically set the stage for what we are currently seeing. Putin had made a speech about 2 months ago, where he said that America wants Russia weak. I believe his assessment is correct. Instead of treating Russia like an ally that wants to do the right thing, we (Bush admin) treated Russia like it should be a US puppet. It's no wonder that with Russia's gas & oil reserves, it is telling the world to, "stuff it!" Besides Russia's aggression they have done a very good job in reversing democracy in their country. Way to go, "Bush!" :-P The U.S. is very responsible for Russia’s return to (old school politics) with its satellite countries. Mind you, I am not proud of this at all.

If you recall, the US was trying to work with the UN to get Saddam Hussein to allow the nuclear inspections resume. Saddam ended up giving the US, “the finger.”

However, the US should’ve really had an international coalition before going into Iraq. We should’ve also made sure that our facts were accurate in regards to the intelligence we had.

The fact that we, “John Wayne’d” the invasion into Iraq, does give some credence to Russia’s desire to mettle with the affairs of Georgia.

If you add to that, the d.o.i of Kosovo & how we lobbied countries around the world to honor that, basically set the stage for what we are currently seeing.

Putin had made a speech about 2 months ago, where he said that America wants Russia weak. I believe his assessment is correct. Instead of treating Russia like an ally that wants to do the right thing, we (Bush admin) treated Russia like it should be a US puppet.

It’s no wonder that with Russia’s gas & oil reserves, it is telling the world to, “stuff it!”

Besides Russia’s aggression they have done a very good job in reversing democracy in their country. Way to go, “Bush!” :-P

]]> By: Armenia & the South Caucasus | The Caucasian Knot » Blog Archive » Georgia: Ethnic Cleansing and Russia’s Game Plan http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-2/#comment-1505961 Armenia & the South Caucasus | The Caucasian Knot » Blog Archive » Georgia: Ethnic Cleansing and Russia’s Game Plan Mon, 25 Aug 2008 05:19:23 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1505961 [...] Many suspect that Russian military action was planned with this in mind, especially after the precedent set with Kosovo. A vote by parliamentarians on the status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia would not be binding on the [...] [...] Many suspect that Russian military action was planned with this in mind, especially after the precedent set with Kosovo. A vote by parliamentarians on the status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia would not be binding on the [...]

]]> By: RBG http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-2/#comment-1504090 RBG Wed, 20 Aug 2008 09:34:22 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1504090 Russia-vs-Georgia.com – visitor can vote there for one of the conflict sides. Now Russia leading – only 20% of visitors support Georgia. And there is more then 2000 comments about war in South Osetia – interesting to read opposite opinions - http://www.russia-vs-georgia.com/ Russia-vs-Georgia.com – visitor can vote there for one of the conflict sides. Now Russia leading – only 20% of visitors support Georgia.

And there is more then 2000 comments about war in South Osetia – interesting to read opposite opinions –

http://www.russia-vs-georgia.com/

]]> By: Brett http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-2/#comment-1504004 Brett Wed, 20 Aug 2008 02:55:27 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1504004 I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, but it seems absurd to deny the obvious impact of Kosovo or Iraq on the Russian invasion of Georgia. In fact, the line is clearly drawn back to the NATO war on Serbia (one I supported at the time, and still do, though with much more appreciation for the deleterious effect of "humanitarian intervention" -- which I broadly support, R2P, for example -- on sovereignty and international order.) That's why it's called a dilemma. The NATO action in Kosovo does seem to have been, as the international commission found, "unlawful but justified." Again, a dilemma. But that war set a precedent -- legal, political and rhetorical -- which helped pave the way for the US invasion of Iraq. Iraq -- once the putative casus belli was found to be, well, lacking in empirical substance, the Bush administration shamefully abused the rhetoric of humanitarian intervention to justify -- ex post facto -- an invasion the New American Century Foundation (later the Bush cabinet) planned in 1995. That violation of international law -- the willful, indeed criminal invasion of a sovereign state for the purpose of regime change -- was but the most brazen violation of international law committed by the United States in modern history. That they framed it in terms of jus ad bellum doesn’t change the facts. Sometimes, as in Kosovo, perhaps, international law should be violated for the sake of humanitarian rescue. But Bush's abuse of those ethical principles was a political precedent for the Russian abuse of them in Georgia. That's hardly a leap. The dots couldn't be clearer. Recognizing those relationships doesn't justify them, and certainly doesn't lend moral or ethical support to Iraq or South Ossetia. But what the Kosovo-Iraq-South Ossetia chain makes clear is that one who violates the law as willfully as the US has in the first two links (and again, sometimes the law ought to broken) cannot make a strong case against someone else breaking the law in as brazen a fashion as the Russian case. Hearing Bush and Rice speak of the importance of international law (the paramount importance of the respect for sovereignty for God's sake!) is perhaps the only thing more shameless than their use of humanitarianism to justify their war on Iraq. I’m sorry to put it so bluntly, but it seems absurd to deny the obvious impact of Kosovo or Iraq on the Russian invasion of Georgia. In fact, the line is clearly drawn back to the NATO war on Serbia (one I supported at the time, and still do, though with much more appreciation for the deleterious effect of “humanitarian intervention” — which I broadly support, R2P, for example — on sovereignty and international order.) That’s why it’s called a dilemma. The NATO action in Kosovo does seem to have been, as the international commission found, “unlawful but justified.” Again, a dilemma. But that war set a precedent — legal, political and rhetorical — which helped pave the way for the US invasion of Iraq. Iraq — once the putative casus belli was found to be, well, lacking in empirical substance, the Bush administration shamefully abused the rhetoric of humanitarian intervention to justify — ex post facto — an invasion the New American Century Foundation (later the Bush cabinet) planned in 1995. That violation of international law — the willful, indeed criminal invasion of a sovereign state for the purpose of regime change — was but the most brazen violation of international law committed by the United States in modern history. That they framed it in terms of jus ad bellum doesn’t change the facts. Sometimes, as in Kosovo, perhaps, international law should be violated for the sake of humanitarian rescue. But Bush’s abuse of those ethical principles was a political precedent for the Russian abuse of them in Georgia. That’s hardly a leap. The dots couldn’t be clearer. Recognizing those relationships doesn’t justify them, and certainly doesn’t lend moral or ethical support to Iraq or South Ossetia. But what the Kosovo-Iraq-South Ossetia chain makes clear is that one who violates the law as willfully as the US has in the first two links (and again, sometimes the law ought to broken) cannot make a strong case against someone else breaking the law in as brazen a fashion as the Russian case. Hearing Bush and Rice speak of the importance of international law (the paramount importance of the respect for sovereignty for God’s sake!) is perhaps the only thing more shameless than their use of humanitarianism to justify their war on Iraq.

]]> By: blacksilver http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-2/#comment-1503830 blacksilver Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:24:26 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1503830 Look, I'm trying to stay on point. I agree that there could have been a precedent in Kosovo, but the way Russia acted totally nullified their right to it. If big brother Russia had waited for EVIDENCE to come forth and proven by independent observers before throwing a big tantrum, then Saakashvili could be rightfully hanging from a rope in a court somewhere with no word from the U.S. Instead Czar Putin decided he'd go for a swing on the rope himself. They're having a hard time finding 100 bodies from the initial attack let alone 1600; Kokoity directly admitted his war crimes to the journalists standing before him when he said he took civilian's hostage! That's really what my point is. This event sets precedence more than Kosovo did. Now anybody can act like Russia, put out a media blitz about genocide in some other country, and immediately (or going back in time if you believe the cyber-attack stories) invade with the forces they already had massing on the borders... right? If the law of the world is that if one country does it then all countries can do it as you say, then what you say is right. I don't agree. But then... just because I don't agree doesn't mean we won't nuke you. Look, I’m trying to stay on point. I agree that there could have been a precedent in Kosovo, but the way Russia acted totally nullified their right to it. If big brother Russia had waited for EVIDENCE to come forth and proven by independent observers before throwing a big tantrum, then Saakashvili could be rightfully hanging from a rope in a court somewhere with no word from the U.S. Instead Czar Putin decided he’d go for a swing on the rope himself. They’re having a hard time finding 100 bodies from the initial attack let alone 1600; Kokoity directly admitted his war crimes to the journalists standing before him when he said he took civilian’s hostage!
That’s really what my point is.
This event sets precedence more than Kosovo did.
Now anybody can act like Russia, put out a media blitz about genocide in some other country, and immediately (or going back in time if you believe the cyber-attack stories) invade with the forces they already had massing on the borders… right? If the law of the world is that if one country does it then all countries can do it as you say, then what you say is right. I don’t agree.
But then… just because I don’t agree doesn’t mean we won’t nuke you.

]]> By: blacksilver http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-2/#comment-1503788 blacksilver Tue, 19 Aug 2008 17:54:11 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1503788 Yea, yea. As you can see it was already expected. Mutually assured destruction has been status quo for... long before I was born. For 10 years now the U.S. has been waiting for this, watching it in the works behind the rhetoric. I, myself, first heard about it in 1999, and I have nothing to do with the U.S. government (or any other for that matter). You don't think the U.S. already has some kind of balancing response? You think the U.S. is tied up in Iraq when all the U.S. political parties agree more or less to have their troops out by next year or the year after? Haven't you noticed? That war is already over. They're ready to go where they need to next. So, where do you think they're going to move those troops next? You really think a nuclear Iran worries the U.S. more than Czar Putin gone crazy? Yea, yea. As you can see it was already expected. Mutually assured destruction has been status quo for… long before I was born. For 10 years now the U.S. has been waiting for this, watching it in the works behind the rhetoric. I, myself, first heard about it in 1999, and I have nothing to do with the U.S. government (or any other for that matter). You don’t think the U.S. already has some kind of balancing response? You think the U.S. is tied up in Iraq when all the U.S. political parties agree more or less to have their troops out by next year or the year after? Haven’t you noticed? That war is already over. They’re ready to go where they need to next. So, where do you think they’re going to move those troops next? You really think a nuclear Iran worries the U.S. more than Czar Putin gone crazy?

]]> By: Saratov http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-2/#comment-1503717 Saratov Tue, 19 Aug 2008 14:30:59 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1503717 The Russian Bear comes out of Hibernation, with thermonuclear teeth, new devices to bite hard and can’t be IGNORED. The RS-24 is a MIRV warheads version of the operational Topol-M (SS-25), carrying up to 10 independently targetable warheads. Hours after it was launched, Russian President Vladimir Putin fired his own warning that the US missile shield could "transform Europe into a powder keg". The R-500 is a new cruise missile adapted for the Iskander launcher previously used only with tactical ballistic missiles. With a range of up to 280 km (170 miles), a radar-evading trajectory and a hit error of no more than three meters, it can be effectively used against small targets, including separate missile launchers. http://www.military-today.com/navy/borei_class.htm Borei class submarine, armed with 16, Submarine-launched ballistic missiles called the SS-NX-30 Bulava. The current version of the Bulava is able to carry up to six MIRV warheads; future variants are expected to carry a maximum of ten. http://www.warfare.ru/?linkid=1687&catid=263 Russian Nuclear supersonic ramjet powered cruise missile SS-N-22 Sunburn / Kh-41 (ASM-MSS) Moskit. And MORE. The Russian Bear comes out of Hibernation, with thermonuclear teeth, new devices to bite hard and can’t be IGNORED.
The RS-24 is a MIRV warheads version of the operational Topol-M (SS-25), carrying up to 10 independently targetable warheads.
Hours after it was launched, Russian President Vladimir Putin fired his own warning that the US missile shield could “transform Europe into a powder keg”.
The R-500 is a new cruise missile adapted for the Iskander launcher previously used only with tactical ballistic missiles. With a range of up to 280 km (170 miles), a radar-evading trajectory and a hit error of no more than three meters, it can be effectively used against small targets, including separate missile launchers.
http://www.military-today.com/navy/borei_class.htm
Borei class submarine, armed with 16, Submarine-launched ballistic missiles called the SS-NX-30 Bulava.
The current version of the Bulava is able to carry up to six MIRV warheads; future variants are expected to carry a maximum of ten.
http://www.warfare.ru/?linkid=1687&catid=263
Russian Nuclear supersonic ramjet powered cruise missile SS-N-22 Sunburn / Kh-41 (ASM-MSS) Moskit. And MORE.

]]> By: RBG http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-2/#comment-1503513 RBG Tue, 19 Aug 2008 04:22:52 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1503513 Russia-vs-Georgia.com – voting and more then 2000 comments about war in South Osetia http://www.russia-vs-georgia.com/ Russia-vs-Georgia.com – voting and more then 2000 comments about war in South Osetia

http://www.russia-vs-georgia.com/

]]> By: blacksilver http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-2/#comment-1502915 blacksilver Sun, 17 Aug 2008 21:01:49 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1502915 Iraq did kill >1 million civilians and tried to assassinate the U.S. president's father. That last fact alone makes the Russo-Georgia conflict different. The U.S. may have gone in over a U.N. border, but only after months of telling everyone what they were going to do and have a chance to change the course. Russia instead betrayed everyone who was trying to use other mechanisms to fix the problem, by completely ignoring any chance for them to succeed. I'm not saying what the U.S. did was right. I'm saying that if its OK to do it because the U.S. did it then you have now lost any moral argument you had in this. It is now just about who is allied with whom. The U.S. can now use the same argument to invade any country it wants! That is of course if you really believe what you are saying... Iraq did kill >1 million civilians and tried to assassinate the U.S. president’s father. That last fact alone makes the Russo-Georgia conflict different. The U.S. may have gone in over a U.N. border, but only after months of telling everyone what they were going to do and have a chance to change the course. Russia instead betrayed everyone who was trying to use other mechanisms to fix the problem, by completely ignoring any chance for them to succeed.

I’m not saying what the U.S. did was right. I’m saying that if its OK to do it because the U.S. did it then you have now lost any moral argument you had in this. It is now just about who is allied with whom. The U.S. can now use the same argument to invade any country it wants! That is of course if you really believe what you are saying…

]]> By: Alex http://globalvoicesonline.org/2008/08/12/south-ossetia-did-kosovo-set-a-precedent/comment-page-2/#comment-1502865 Alex Sun, 17 Aug 2008 19:06:00 +0000 http://globalvoicesonline.org/?p=48231#comment-1502865 GEORGIAN OPPOSITION PARTY ASKS NOBEL INSTITUTE NOT TO AWARD NOBEL PEACE PRIZE TO SAAKASHVILI Armenpress Oct 4, 2005 TBILISI, OCTOBER 4, ARMENPRESS: A Georgian opposition party has sent a letter to the Nobel Institute in Norway asking it 'not to award the 2005 Peace Prize to Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili." Shalva Natelashvili, the chairman of the Labor Party, said the party asked the Novel Institute that is to convene on October 7 to decide the winner, 'to examine Georgian president's performance, who is trying to build an authoritarian regime violating basic human rights and freedoms." http://www.armeniandiaspora.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-38664.html GEORGIAN OPPOSITION PARTY ASKS NOBEL INSTITUTE NOT TO AWARD NOBEL PEACE PRIZE TO SAAKASHVILI

Armenpress
Oct 4, 2005

TBILISI, OCTOBER 4, ARMENPRESS: A Georgian opposition party has sent a
letter to the Nobel Institute in Norway asking it ‘not to award the 2005
Peace Prize to Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili.”

Shalva Natelashvili, the chairman of the Labor Party, said the party
asked the Novel Institute that is to convene on October 7 to decide the
winner, ‘to examine Georgian president’s performance, who is trying to build
an authoritarian regime violating basic human rights and freedoms.”

http://www.armeniandiaspora.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-38664.html

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