See Global Voices special coverage page on the South Ossetia crisis.
With the massive deployment of Russian forces in Georgia, the small South Caucasus country's conflict with Moscow over the breakaway region of South Ossetia has obvious political ramifications thousands of miles away in the United States where presidential elections will be held on 4 November. With some alleging that the crisis reflects a struggle between the West and Russia, where the U.S. Presidential candidates stand on the matter is fast becoming a significant campaign issue.
While Republican candidate John McCain takes a firm anti-Russian stand, the Democratic Party's Barack Obama is more neutral on the matter and calls for restraint from both Georgia and Russia. At the heart of the matter is the perpetual debate over foreign policy and Western energy interests in the region as well as U.S. military support for Georgia.
Across The Pond examines other reasons for the differences in approach. The blog run by Deutsche Welle also solicits the opinion of its readers.
What's the reason for the different reactions by McCain and Obama? As Martin writes, the McCain camp sees a “commander-in chief opportunity” for their candidate. But, adds Martin, Obama's team also sees an opportunity: To show that McCain is beholden once again to lobbying interests. His foreign policy adviser Randy Scheuneman lobbied for Georgia from 2003 until recently.
But what do you think? Who has the better argument on the Russia-Georgia conflict McCain or Obama?
Making the question a political hot potato is the question of U.S. foreign policy. The Washington Note clearly blames the U.S. for the events in motion today.
When Kosovo declared independence and the US and other European states recognized it — thus sidestepping Russia's veto in the United Nations Security Council — many of us believed that the price for Russian cooperation in other major global problems just went much higher and that the chance of a clash over Georgia's breakaway border provinces increased dramatically.
[…]
It is possible that Condoleezza Rice's July 10th visit to Tbilisi and joint press conference with Saakashvili was interpreted by him that American power and resolve were firmly behind Georgia and its intention to reassert control over the autonomous provinces. The Georgian president miscalculated about American power in the world today and our resolve to take on Russia directly — no matter how much the Washington Post's Fred Hiatt and Anne Applebaum would like to see the situation differently.
While the seeds of this conflict between Georgia and Russia had been planted long ago, the U.S. helped engineer events that are now undermining its own interests and the global perception of American power.
Other bloggers are also starting to comment on the positions of the two U.S. presidential candidates. The Carpetbagger Report says that McCain's position is alarming.
Obama, calling for restraint and condemning the “outbreak of violence,” also criticized Russia for having “invaded Georgia’s sovereign” and having “encroached on Georgia’s sovereignty.” Obama’s line was largely consistent with that of the Bush White House, the European Union, NATO, and a series of European powers.
John McCain took a different line, which, as Smith noted, “put him more closely in line with the moral clarity and American exceptionalism projected by President Bush’s first term.”
[…]
Wait, would-be presidents should appreciate nuance when dealing with an international crisis? Credible candidates should be able to recognize gray areas in complex parts of Eastern Europe? Thoughtful would-be leaders need not to rush to view the world as a series of good guys and bad guys?
[…]
Let’s be clear: if McCain the Candidate is a reliable indicator of what we can expect from McCain the President, the presumptive Republican nominee would apparently be anxious to exacerbate the burgeoning war, and antagonize Russia.
There’s a lot going on right now, but this is a very important development in the presidential campaign. Ben Smith characterized this as a “true ‘3 a.m. moment’” for the presidential candidates. And at this point, McCain is once again looking pretty scary.
Donklephant also sides with Obama.
Obama sides with Georgia, but takes a more diplomatic stance and is carefully to not vilify Russia…
[…]
McCain is much more pointed and has no problem making Russia the bad guy…
[…]
Personally, I’m in favor of the Obama approach, because Georgia’s hands certain aren’t clean in all of this, and even the Bush administration has stated as much…
[…]
Long story short, Obama’s approach gives us more flexibility to negotiate with Russia, while McCain’s draws a line in the sand with empty threats that Russia could easily ignore. Why? Because there’s virtually no chance we’ll stick our necks out for a country like Georgia…not when they tried to capture the capital of South Ossetia, but have since been pushed back by Russia’s overwhelming military might. This is a VERY local skirmish, and I can guarantee you that Americans want absolutely NO part of it.
Blogger Interrupted also uses the crisis in Georgia to argue the case for an Obama presidency.
[…] Georgia could become a microcosm of the foreign policy debate this year - a Bush-McCain policy, dominated by knee jerk platitudes, vs. the diplomatic seriousness of Barack Obama, dominated by an increasingly obvious instinct to negotiate. The consequences in the Caucasus could be far reaching, and be yet another repeat of cowboy diplomacy spinning out of American control.
[…]
Did I mention that both Armenia and Azerbaijan border Iran? And oh yeah, the main pipeline moving Azeri oil to market goes through Georgia.
Dominoes could fall in the Caucasus rapidly, and with a lot of blood, and inflationary effects on the price of oil, if the US plays the cards it is dealt the way John McCain seeks to play them. Even the Bush administration, in weary lame-duck status, sees this differently than John McCain, their statement being similar to Obama’s.
Bottom line, this situation requires clear-eyed and urgent diplomacy to make it stop. If it doesn’t stop soon, no one can predict where the end game lies. John McCain may need to shore up his base by pandering to the Instapundit democracy-as-tonic wannabes, but it will not save anyone’s democracy, and may imperil democracy in places other than Georgia.
And Republican spawned, unpredictable end games sure have gotten us far, haven’t they?
The Elephant Bar disagrees and says that conflict between Russia and Georgia exposes Obama's weakness at times of international crisis.
Seize the moment. Expose to the American people the incredible shrinking stature of the man who would be POTUS in times of war. He has nothing to say and knows nothing of how we find ourselves in this situation. […]
Do not get me wrong. McCain is no novice to the region and has not always been right in his decisions. […] Now, I find myself in the awkward position presented by the binary world of American politics in having to choose between a man that does not have a clue and one who has made decisions where I disagreed.
We have committed the United States to supporting freedom and democracy in parts of the world where there has been little of either. Georgia is where that decision has led us. We have trained them, armed them and encouraged their movement into Nato. Russia is now striking back. Georgia is the new Kosovo. What happens in Georgia will have unknown consequences to Europe and the United States for a generation. […]
Prairie Pundit simply says that South Ossetia exposes Obama's “wimpy side.”
I know Obama is following he same posture as the Bush administration. But isn't he the guy that says we need change?
Meanwhile, The Russia Blog simply says that “McCain's Wrong on Russia… And So Is Obama.”
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[...] The full post is available on Global Voices Online. [...]
In politics only fairness will prevail.
Each country shows the news the way they want to see.
We can not to force even our children to live with us, how the Georgians (after all of these) expect now to see Ossetia in one joint family? Forget about third countries, they are always after their interests. Killing over 2,000 civilians it’s almost 5% of their 70,000 population
Obama - see how fast we can run, just like NATO and the UN.
Georgia is our ally? Where all the help? Taiwan is watching!
Are the Russian bear bombers still buzzing US carriers in the Gulf. SHoot the scum down!
Russia is putting the US on notice that she is playing in Russia’s backyard (sphere of influence)and is claiming it back. Other former USSR countries are also being put on notice that Russia is their protector, not the USA. Russia has powerful card that she has not been playing to its fullest extent … that is arming Iran and encouraging Iran to attack American interests in the Middle East.
Russia is cynically exploiting the South Ossettians. They have no intention of allowing them to become an independant republic. By controlling South Ossetia they can place weaponry on high ground directly overlooking the energy corridor to the West. Georgia also has billions of barrels of oil - two companies in particular, Frontera and Canargo are in the process of developing deep oil deposits from the cretaceous.
I must agree South Ossettia is only smoking gun. Russia have not even spent 3 weeks or even 3 days of study to conclude “genocide” charges against Georgia. Russia simply take it as granted.
Russia/Soviet have long history on manipulating referendum of nearby “republic”. They are playing trick again to manufacture the case that South Ossettia is another Kosova. South Ossettia is not another Kosova, instead Georgian popultation rate in South Ossettia in decreasing within recent 50 years! If there is genocide it is Georgian being genocide.
why the hell everybody is looking at it from the american/eu point of view. Do you really think that anybody in Georgia gives a shit about the american bloggers oh-so-careful analysis of american electoral politics.
There are children gettiong killed in Georgia and you people can only think of US or European politics.
And anyway Europe should do something about it, it is cloeser to georgia, but as usual EU can talk and complain about USA but on its own can do nothing…or….appeasing Russia.
PAH!
I have seen movies taken by Georgians moving around Zchinwali which are showing that the Russian artillery is shelling public buildings (here, a school). A friend of mine who was a journalist in Chechnyja reported that the Russians shelled Grosny with megabombs, obviously killing hundreds of civilians. Later the Russian propaganda blamed it on the Chechnyans. In Georgia, the Russians are blaming the major destructions on the Georgians. Remember, Hitler was blaming the raid on the Gleiwitz radio stations on the Polish… It’s an old trick.
In my opinion, you are manipulating here and now distributing your fakes.
Where the facts? that…
Russia performs peackeping operation!!!, since 10 years!!!, having UN mandate!!! in South Osetia. Is it good or bad does not matter, its a duty supported by the World.
The city of Tskhinvali (Osetia) destroyed by Georgian forces using heavy artelery, thousand of people from South Osetia escaped, a lot of killed…
I see the fotos, video about people from Tskhinvali (Osetia)… where are they on your TV? Only few fakes from Reuters about 3 people from Gori (Georgia).
So …where Osetians from Tskhinvali?
Why headlines speak sometimes about Russia vs Georgia? Why not South Osetia vs Georgia, which is the subj? Media Trick n2?
In my opinion, the goal of Georgian President involve Russia in the conflict and make its bigger as possible with support of your “free” Press.
Who can explain me, why Georgian president speaks with EU flag behind in the news? He has nothing to do with EU, get out, leave us alone.
Remeber US blaimed Iraq for some weapons which never been found. Hundred thousand people killed for “democratic” reasons. However there is no Chechnyja, there is no Iraq, there is no Kosovo and Serbia in the subj.
Just you are manipulating here and now distributing your propoganda with media tricks.
How long USA and so called “democratic countries” will cover the truth about this war?Around 1000 USA marines and military instructors use to train georgian`s troops before this war.USA,ISRAEL,UKRAINE, sold weapon to Georgia in huge volume.At this days african -americans military instructors were found dead in South Ossetia.New Hitler,Saakashvili who killed 2000 people mostly kids,elderly people has protection from USA,ISRAEL,UKRAINE,GB and some “friends countries”.Genocide by Saakashvili rewarded by countries who sold weapon to this dictator.Newspapers,tv,radio telling the same story about Russian invasion,but nobody says,that this war was planned event,long time before by good paid dictator Saakashvili. This is moment of truth and sooner or later people and countries who did it will be punished by God.
Kelvin Klein, Gori 3 lives are fakes? They are civilian. I feel this is verbal reprisal is nothing helpful. BTW, I agree #8 that Russian has a long history of bombing civilian and still claim this is act of ememy.
Maconald - OK, what’s about THOUSAND of osetian killed by georgians (properly trained by US instructor)? Not count? Why is no one western country offer a simple help (medical, food, etc) to the thousand and thousand osetian civilians flee from battlefield? They are not a human kind for you? All that wounded, childrens, ladies? Such a lot of help for Albanian half-criminal state, and not for any nation supporting Russia…Bombing civilin - is the most famous game for US AF - starting from Dresden and Tokyo, and in row: Vietnam, Lebanon, Lybia, Serbia, Afganistan, Iraq…will be continued for sure!
anonymous We remember…Collin Powel who found in Iraq chemical weapon, never existed in real life. Brilliant example indead!!!!
All that “hyper super isteria” in US really powerfull level of guys (and closed to them servants) has very simple reason. During all 90th they were very sure that the world is belongs to them, and friendly speaking, were too close to the truth. Times changed… They just start to handle somehow with the fact that China ALREADY on the nearly same level of power like US, and shows the further growth. And now they faced the “nightmare form the past” - Russia…Hey, guys, world become too difficult for your mind, isn’t it?
Macdonald, these photos are clearly fake. I seen 2 pictures - on both “corpse” in same pose, but in 3-5 meters different places. On another photos body moving from place to place too. But in addition, clothes absolutely clean - no dust, no blood, no visible damages. On over hand, I just seen the photo of killed ossetian - top half of the head is gone. So, who are liars?
And about “Russian has a long history of bombing civilian” - country with a longest history of bombing civilian is a United States. Vietnam, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Iraq again - it is far not complete list. Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki - only US bombing civilians with nuclear bombs! Even more victims was in Dresden and Tokio bombing with fire-bombs. Russia never done something even close to that brutalities.
Everyone who think and judjes objectively understands that first the war began the Georgia.
To be more correct we should note that Sahakashvili began the war by the command of usa. And we can say that USA began the war against Russia to make Russia troubles, not let him to grow, and of course decrease Russia’s energetic strength.
Also as at the moment in US the elections go on, republicans need to have something to say to make their candidates votes to increase.
Every thinking man can say that the bigining of the war was not surprise as Georgia by the help of USa and Nato was preparing to this war very long time.
Before the bigining the war the Georgia was really developing and growing, and indeed it does not need the war, and of course the war was much more needed for USA, and we should say that sahakashvili acted arising not from Georgia’s benefits but for US benefits.
Unfortunately in this game which usa started many peaceful peopole diying and suffering.
I was shocked when noticed that western democtaric organisations, countries , objective and reputable tvs while concerning this matter they did not say at first any word about that the first day Georgians military attacked the South Osetia, that many peacful people were killed by georgians, that almost the Tskinvali was destroyed.
Hey world what is going on, be objective, not let some countries politicians to make the world stupid.
Why when the same americans did in yugoslavia, kosovo, Belgrad and in other countries they have rigth to do it.
Why world blame Karadjich but not Sahakashvili.
Why USa should do everything it want, and when it is better for them it is allowed and when it is not good for them then it is bad.
Why they can use democracy as they like but not as it should be.
Why kosovo can be independent but South Osetia , Abkazia and others can not.
It is obvious that both USa and Russia , and European Union play thier game for their own benefits and they does not care about others.
I want that every human in this world in everyithing being done in this world may give objective comments, say the truth because it is the truth but not to say anything becasuse it wants usa, russia, france, great britain, germany or others.
I don’ t like when usa or other big country uses small countries and nations in thier games.
If world countinue in this manner, further everthing in the world would be as it like a big country.
Stop liying world be objective.
May I remind you all that threre are deaths of 1200-2000 RUSSIAN CITIZENS!!!! Some of them might not be Russian but most surely are. Imagine what US would have done in the same situation.
Let’s put things in context: the Russians - the sort of criminals that would send thousands of young men (their “future”) to die over some rocks in the Kuril Islands, or as they did over some uninhabited swampland in Khabarovsk in 1960s - are trying to recapture Georgia. They bombed the oil and gas pipelines of a sovereign state on the absurd pretext that the S. Ossetians are Russian citizens (they issued passports to the Ossetians - Georgian citizens - to undermine the Republic of Georgia). They strafed a civilian marketplace in Gori, like the Serbs enjoyed doing. And the US and European governments are sitting on their hands, rather than trying to send aircraft carriers through the Dardanelles, or deploying SAM systems. The Russians mean to pulverize Georgia until it can be retaken by force, just as they invaded Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and the whole of Eastern Europe. They will blockade Georgia’s ports with the Black Sea Fleet, in the hopes of starving the Georgian nation, just as Stalin starved millions of Ukrainians in the 1930s. And Russia is arming any faction that will destabilize Georgia, just as the Soviet Union flooded the Arab countries with weapons in the Cold War to massacre the Israelis by proxy.
The point is this - the Russians live to observe and cause the suffering of others. The Russian Empire aimed at genocide in the Northern Caucasus throughout the 19th century, and deported entire nations in the 1940s. NATO needs to act immediately, and send its troops, SAMs, and AWACs to Georgia. The Russians cannot be reasoned with - they must be defeated.
Haykk, Your objective is something like: “To be more correct we should note that Sahakashvili began the war by the command of usa”. If other people do not understand in this way this is not objective, huh?
Having objectivity redefined. Cool.
I am not saying US and Georgia is not playing card. But you can’t missing the point that Ossetia and Russia and also playing identical cards, and in more brutal way.
[...] South Ossetia: Georgia, Russia and the U.S. Presidential Election. [...]
Alex “Bombing civilin - is the most famous game for US AF - starting from Dresden and Tokyo, and in row: Vietnam, Lebanon, Lybia, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq”
Alex
You forgot that Afghanistan was first bombed to smithereens and destroyed by your army. I do not even want to mention Red Army trying to annex Finland, your army behaviour in Chechenia and so on and so forth , so do not try to pretend to have holier then thou attitude.
You should also look at the reaction of all former so-called socialist countries - majority of them condemned Russia action. To be fair I do agree with your stand regarding Serbia (I think the west made a large mistake there), but that’s not a reason not to call spade a spade i.e. imperialist action against Georgia should be called by a proper name - imperialist action against independent Georgia.
Stop the genocide of the Ossetians!
The nationalistic and fascist government of Georgia from the year 1989 support the policy of the annihilation and the impression of the aboriginal Ossetian population from the territory that they occupy. From 1991 as a consequence of repeated military actions that were undertaken by the criminal authorities of Georgia against the small nations and the national purge murdered thousands of people –Ossetians, Abkhazians, Armenians, Russians. At the same time the scale of the genocide passed over the silence by mass media. The atrocity of the Georgian fascists, the tortures surpassed the one of the German fascists during the World War II.
The Georgian nation is sick, the ideas of the national oneness, justifying the territorial claims are warmed up by the Georgian mass media. The government of Georgia is financed by the USA, having it’s own geopolitical interests in the region. Now the tragedy is developed, the Ossetian people are systematically shot in own houses, perish under blockages of the destroyed houses. The Georgian fascists have destroyed, have wiped about Ossetian villages, the city of Tskhinval is in ruins. It’s impossible to count up the quantity of victims, that were buried under blockages of the houses destroyed by fire of the Georgian aggressors, the account goes on thousand. Groans of people from under blockages are audible. The Republic hospital where had helped to the wounded man was destroyed by the Georgian artillery, under blockages were wounded men and medical workers who could not be released under heavy fire of the opponent. Thus the Georgian party cynically declares the constitutional order prompting, one for another offers insinuations to accuse the Russian or Ossetian parts in the conflict. The people of Abkhazia will be the following victims of the Georgian extremism. We ask for the help, solidarity, and if it is possible with an exit on the international sites. Let the world knows the truth, instead of presented by the Georgian masters of falsifications lie.
People of the world, the information, provided by the international mass media is no true. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia attacked South Ossetia, the troops rolled in. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered the city of Tskhinvali, the capital of the South Ossetian Republic. Whole city was shelling by heavy artillery all day long, there were fights with use of tanks and heavy munition, which were used against both ossetic militia and non-combatants. More than 2000 civillians were killed during Georgian attack. Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening of 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and peace conduction in republic and protection of Russian citizens, living on territory of South Ossetia (approx. 80% of South Ossetian population). Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on the opening day of 2008 Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism.
Im so much glad there are people that see the reality. And to be objective doesnt mean to blame Russia in everything and bring the history out! Yeah, Russia’s got some bad moments in history. But let’s remember about the USA fond of attacking civilians (people in above posts mentioned it). What about Germany that brought the second world war? That’s just history. Doesn’t mean anything. Presidents, mentality, evrything changes. We live in 21 century. Russia didn’t attack Georgia. Russia has nothing to do with Georgia. They just tried to protect South Ossetia, to provide wounded people with medical help and stuff. And at the end of the day everybody’s blaming Russia. Saying that Russia’s flexing its muscles in Georgia. For God’s sake, Russia would never do that. I’m very annoyed with western journalists trying to give people wrong impression about what’s really going on. They show on the TV:”…look, russian tank…”. But why don’t they show georgian tanks running over KIDS?! They keep showing Tbilisi being bombed by russians but where are the scines of ossetian villiages being attacked with heavy artillery by georgians?! And how many people died just because Georgia wants more territory?! Everything they say about Russia is bullshit. In fact, now Russia’s insisting on independence of South Ossetia.
I guess I will be the only Armenian supporting Georgia.
Russians will be out of CAUCASUS along with SOUTH CAUCASUS. We as neighbor nations should be allowed to live together in peace. We all are small republics and we do not need a support of any supperpower to live, Get out of CAUCAUS Russia.
This is not your land. Russians are from Kiev. Chechnya, Dagestan, Ossetia, ABkhazia, Ajaria, Georgia, Azerbajan, Armenia these are not the lands for Russian people. These WERE ARE AND WILL BE the lands of the way ancient people. Alans (ancestors of Chechens) used to live there thousands years before Slavic tribes ever created.
Get out from our lands. You play cards Russia, you support terrorists on each separatist country, you make neighbours fight for your interests and after all these people, simple civilians suffer from war, poverty etc.
300 some years ago Russia invaded CAUCASUS and our problems began. Before we used to live in peace. We always had problems but we never fight and destroy each others land. We as small nations always united against big tirans. For example Georgians and Armenians never fought before 1918. Does that tell you something? It is thousands of years. It is not a joke. Thousands of years in peace. And the same about Albanians(ancestors of Azerbajanis). Now we have fight with them and all because of Russians wich provocated Karabakh conflict supporting terrorist bands both in Armenia and Azerbajan.
We want peace. You Russia is a stable proof that we will never have it as long as we are in your control area.
The most beautiful princess in Armenia was Alanian princess. The daughter of Alanian king. This is a fact. And now you mixed everything and Chechens fought against us in Kababakh.
So get out. let Georgians, ABkhazians, Ossetians and all we live in peace and develop.
Our poverty is your political success. As poor as these countries as rich and important are you in the world because you have control all over us.
We want to be with USA and west along with georgians. you know why ?
Because there is a principle of WEST
Live and give others chance to live.
This is the one of the main idea of west
You do not have that decency. Your citizens are living in poverty. So you do not live and you do not allow others live. All Russia does is provocative others, make them suffer and suffer itself. Look at the friends of Russia. You will never find a country which has at least DEVELOPING economy, which respects its citizens, which is not poor. Cuba, Nikaragua, Iraq, Syria, the list is unlimited and the poverty is unlimited.
Let us decide where we want to go. We do not want to be with country which is not respecting it’s allies.
USA is not perfect. It would be perfect if it have supported and protected all countries, even enemies. But USA supports and protects only it’s allies, like Kosovo. And this is enough for us. World is not a heaven. Being it heaven USA and west would have been angels. But we have what we have.
Stay with Russia and forever be in poverty and wars between each other or go to NATO, USA, EUROPE, stop fighting and economically grow.
We want second. Get OUT to your northern lands. South is belong to our proud southern small nations.
For some reason people tend to co-exist peacefully. Well of course… until GOVERNMENTS step in.
Especially the ones with imperialistic twist - be it small yet imperialistic Georgia, Russia or the US. Can’t help but quote a common reference to Georgia - “the only island of democracy in the region”. Never mind the rigged elections, recent opposition arrests and killings, and deployment of special forces to deal with demonstrations. But this was a couple of months ago and as we know the attention span and the memory of an average mainstream news consumer is short. Not to speak about history of the region. That’s out of reach totally. Our brains can not consume THAT much information.
Governments do not act for the best interests of their citizens. Do they? If they would I guess the peaceful demonstrations won’t be suppressed, minorities oppressed, wars waged.
Do me and YOU want war anywhere in the world? Do YOU fight with your minority neighbor next door? Do YOU hate a particular Iraqi, Georgian, Osset, Armenian, Russian so you want to kill them, or worse bomb the neighborhood?
Tell me I am wrong. But give me some arguments.
Armenian, Nobody ever wanted to fight but Georgia! And Russia’s got nothing to do with that. In fact, if Russia didn’t get involved protecting South Osetia Georgia would still be attacking, killing thousands of people. So what peace are you talking about?! What would Russia gain attacking Georgia? Russia doesn’t want anyhting from anybody. It has its own. Your country separated from Russia ages ago, but still Armenia is a poor country. Who doesn’t let you grow economically?! How does Russia affect your country or any of these countries? This is a free world. You are just looking for an excuse, looking for somebody to blame. You are talking about principal of WEST when you live and give others chance to live. And now tell me how many times America itself took (not gave!) that chance from people?! Attacking civilians, trying to get involved in any conflict in the wolrd…I admit Russia might have done some wrongs, but Georgia has more blame to put on.
Dear All,
Several questions from the Russian citizen:
1/ Does US and any other countries support of Georgia means that those countries take responsibility for up to 2000 citizens of South Osetia killed by Georgians during the first 2 days of their agression?
2/ Why the official report re 2000 murdered South Osetians did appear at international broadcast few days later as “from some recourses in Russian authorities”? It is disinformation as it has been an official report announced by Russian President.
3/ Why the international TV channels have been reporting from Tbilisi only, and not from Tsihnvali (South Osetia) in the cause of bombing (maybe because Georgian bombs were more dangerous as their aims were citisens)?
4/ Why US calls Russia actions and disproportional means: 2000 dead South Osetians vs 16 Georgian soldiers.
5/ Why the EU and US are trying to ignore the fact that Georgians initiated the agression?
Regards,
M
For Michael: Let’s put things in context: “so called really democratic US” - the sort of criminals that through all his history prefers send thousands of NOT AMERICAN young men (to kill “future of possible competitor”) to die over some oil rigs, or convinient sea coast, or whatever also interesting for Wall-street. Rusians, good or bad, but more bravery and honestly - fighting personally.
-World notice - Is necessary to prepare a great world (global) holiday (party) to celebrate the day that G. W. Bush after-taste of being A President of U.S.A.
What I can’t understand is why that CIA puppet war criminal Saakashvili is not immediately arrested, tried for war crimes and for genocide, and hung by his CIA neck.
At any rate, Dimitri Medvedev, the President of the Russian Federation, and Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov announced yesterday that Russia will recognize the independence and freedom of South ossetia and Abkhazia. Forget about a CIA puppet state of Georgia, a US banana republic in the Caucasus. Forget about it.
Fogetaboutit! The independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia is next. Then that CIA puppet and psychopathic genocidal stooge must be brought to justice and hanged by his CIA neck at the end of a rope.
I just can’t understand why that CIA stooge and puppet is still alive. He should be hanging at the end og a rope with a broken neck. You better watch for falling missiles, you genocidal pCIA puppet psycho.
Why people still making those 2000-death atrocity/genocide fake claims? It has been PROVEN WRONG by Human Rights Watch.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LD435290.htm
Anna Neistat is not pro-Georgia. She listed out some wrongdoing of Georgia too. But the fact is that atrocity/genocide has never been there is Russian casus belli is a joke.
As an American, I know surprisingly little about how this conflict started between Georgia and Russia. I do know that I feel very saddened that people are being killed, that a country is being destroyed? I want to help, I don’t know how.
These places are far away from where I live and I do not know all the political nuances in that part of the world. Just as Russians and Georgians would not understand the nuances of politics going on here - the city, county, state and federal issues - it is a lot to keep up with just in our local area.
I do want to understand because from what I see on television, it seems like the Russians are picking on a small, much weaker country with horrible force…for what? What is the reason for this invasion?
There are complicated history between Ossetia, Russia and Georgia. It takes time to talk about it.
Ossetia appears to be Alans (or Alanis) in Chinese history and Chinese Han dynasty has driven Huns which again driven Alans tribute. Alans is homeless and Georgia allowed Alans to stay in where now Ossetia. Georgia is proven very tough and hardline as they experience near-death destructions including Mongol attacks.
While Georgian consider themselves as traditional Christian frontier, Ossetian are surviving by attaching themselves to the strong power.
500 years passed, Russia raise as a power. Georgia is no longer attractive to Ossetia. Ossetia is more ready to be aligned with Russia while Georgia is defend its traditional culture. When Ossetia assist several war with Russia including Soviet invasion to Georgia， Chechnya and nearly territory in 1921. Stalin granted South Ossetia as an autonomous region when return.
Several comment is wrong on Stalin that he is Georgian bloodline and so he is acting for Georgia. The truth is he also has Ossetian bloodline from his mother. The motive of keeping South Ossetia in Georgia is to affect Georgian politics by Ossetia pro-Soviet radicals.
Despite of having racial dispute, intermarriage of Georgia and Ossetia is very common (Stalin is one example). Most people in South Ossetia can choose to be Ossetian or Georgian because they have both bloodlines. It only depends on much culture/benefit is more attractive: Russia, or Georgia.
Ossetia never wish to be independent. The existence of Ossetia only reflect they wants to be Russia - the current reliable power. If Russia fall and replace by another region power, Ossetian will attach to them.
It is harmful to explain Ossetia-Georgia conflict in the framework of NATO/Russia conflict. This is not historical. This is only America/Russia imagination. This is only imagination for modern people (modern politician and critics). The history is so long that some reference should be made even when Moscow does not exist on the earth.
Reading history is interesting, but do not fall into trap of think justice can found from history. Without an extremely creative way there is no long term peace for central Asia.
Macdonald.
Interesting - not agree with all you history comments, but you very last sentense is brilliant indeed! There is no any “draft” or “similar as ***” way of solving this problem. Mr. Saakashvili does not smart enough to understand it.
Macdonald.
I also saw this reports from Human Rights Watch on Russian TV channel “VESTI”, even on Russian (surprised?). For me it was not very relible, but…OK, not 2000 - 1800…1500 even..you better now? For sure 500 lifes - are really good, but to kill 1500 peoples, not 2000 - still a terrific crime, and in US leads stright to electrical chair or gas chamber, am I right? And Mr. Saakashvili is reaaly must be there…
Also - only facts, things that I see by myself on CNN and other western TV reports:
- no any single words about this crisys until Russian troops go to Osetia, it means about a 24 days silence during the very first georgian’s assault of Tcinhvali, exactly a time when most peoples died
- multiple cases - in fact showing Tshinvaly in ruin (picture from russian channels), but saying that it is Gori, Georgia
- showing in fact georgian tanks (made in Ukraine), but saying that its are russian tanks
- showing regular russian supply convoy (with food and water, most probably, may ne ammunition), consisting of: 2-3 armoured personal carrier, 5-6 trucks, ruled by leitenant, soldjers without bullet-proof ammunition, helmets, half of them practically sleeping in trucks - but saying that it is very first avangard of special forces going to Tbilisi
- showing the same single buildings in fire in Gory from different angles - saying that in Gorry massive damages
Just few…
“No comments”
Macdonald
Sorry - I mean 24 HOURS SILENCE indeed
Alex, read what Anna Neistat said. It is not 1500. It is not 500. It is not even 150. It is 44. It might be more but reasonably not above 60. Tcinhvali has a lot of building with bullet, but is not destoryed, and it is not a razed.
Everyone comes to me say EVERY SINGLE LIVE COUNT, and that is true. That’s why the issue is not 24-hour silence. The silence is ONE WEEK, or even more. There are quite a several Georgian peacekeeper killed by South Ossetia before the war is known.
I have no access to most US channel except CNN (sorry I have not watched CNN TV for a year), so I cannot get too much on what you have said. However, recent Fox video on youtube does show that Fox is a propaganda machine. My recommendation is to pre-assume Fox is unreliable.
But I can tell you one thing. There are too many propaganda machine. The genocide is a fake one. The ruin is a fake one. Mr. Saakashvili is telling lie and so are Putin. The only fact we know is that Putin has created 77000 more refugees. Who is responsible for South Ossetian refugee? Saakashvili or South Ossetia leader? I think they are share roughly equal responsiblity until more evidence comes.
Macdonald:
Oficial result after inspection in Tshinvali (Red Cross including)
- all administrative buildings and infrastructure (electricity, tap water, gas, TV/Radio, phone network) - up to 80% damage, not working. Electricity can be re-start within 10 days, 1 hospital, 2 schools, some other key structure will be operate after 1 month, but to do it Russia sent a whole engineering corps of North-Caucasus Military Area - up to 3,000 workers and hunderds of dozers, excavators, etc.
- living buidings - up to 30% - ruined, can not be rebuild in any form; 30% - damaged from medium to several, some cam be rebuild; 30% - light damage.
- osetian village - 8 of them SIMPLY ELIMINATED, ground zero, no one house exists, must be completely rebuild ON NEW PLACE.
Only in Tchinvaly directly in the parks and gardens were buried only first 2 days more than 540 peoples, because cemistry was destroyed by georgian artillery and tanks very beginning of crisis.
The problem is that we, russian, not to believe TV also. But we have a feature - soviet past, that means PERSONAL FRIENDS in different parts of former USSR and other country, including all NATO. And my friends from South OSETIA told me about their PERSONAL LOSS, and I still can counts. Not 44, more than 100!!! - it’s know just me. One person, not living in Osetia.
Russia-vs-Georgia – new website.
There is a voting and a lot of comments about war in South Osetia
http://www.russia-vs-georgia.com/
Red Cross is enable to enter South Ossetia by 20-Aug. Your post claiming Red Cross releasing fatality numbers is dated 17-Aug. Is there any misunderstanding here?
http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/georgia-briefing-200808
Hello everyone, I really think that Russians should speak up. Lot of us living outside Russia and we can affect public opinion. I am kinda tired read or hear from paid journalist or politics officials that Russians this, Russians that. Its discriminating. Lets look what we have: Lenin, Sverdlov, Bukharin, Trotsky, Zinoviev, Stalin, Rykov, Tomsky, Menzhinsky, Dzerzhinsky, Yagoda, Molotov - these are key leaders and figures of Communist Party. Now Lenin -mixed; Sverdlov, Bukharin, Trotsky, Zinoviev, Yagoda - jewish; Menzhinsky, Dzerzhinsky - polls, Molotov, Tomsky, Rykov - russians, Stalin - Georgian. I would say it’s very jewish goverment. Funny they took russian last names. I am not nationalist. I d like go back to history and look whats happened there and why. Since everyone realized own valuable culture and want to be independent. Lets look at our history through this point of view. Since 1917 we had Russians, Georgian, Ukranian (Khrushchev)etc ruling the Russia. Can you imagine anything like that in USA? Speaking of USA terminology Stalin (georgian) and Khrushchev (ukranian) wasnt even russian citizens!!!! You cant be USA president if you are not born in USA. Isn’t it most advanced democratic country )))? By the way jews got in goverment in USA only in 1950’s. Now about Obama. Dear americans it s huge step for you, but lets look at russian history: Peter the Great brought from Africa black guy named Abram Petrovich Gannibal who became major-general and The Governor of Reval. At guess what year it took place - 1742 ))). City of Reval its now Tallinn, Estonia - Europe hehehe. Isn’t it ironic? When Schwarzenegger run for Governor. It was huge deal alien (white and german - you are kidding) want to be Governor in democratic USA. I absolutely agrre with a guy saying to McDonald about bombing. USA not less violent then Russia. And most your believes are just myth or your believes. But back to Russians. During 2nd War 20 mln “russians” were killed and frankly i think ussian have to remind about that like jews all the time. Back to South Ossetia it was formed in 1920’s when Georgian Stalin was in charge red army fighting with Georgia. Honestly I dont think anyone care to join Georgia to Russia, but Stalin. Another character Khrushchev gave to Ukraine Russian Crimea. Isn’t it imaginable in USA? I think russians should stood up and start to do demonstration at american embassies to stop misrepresentation Russia. In last Newsweek USA edition Sept 8, 2008.page 11 in Article “Drill here? Why now?” I cite: “list of our enemies: Venezuela, Iran and Russia.” Wow, is it official now? So USA in war with Russia? So now Russian live in USA is who? How about China and Tibet? Bush lickes Chinese asses they even dont to have wash it now. What about Iraq? UN said “no” USA went anyway. Lets face it all these country has oil and resources, which USA doesnt have. All these ships and fight jets not exactly green engined. And one day all these can just sit there useless. It a shame that USA doing for oil. Well once they did it with indians and mexicans. I am not saying that russian goverment is sugar pill, but its just too much - i just tired to hear that russian bad guys. it’s not true. and we have great history. if someone know group or forum let me know. i would go for demonstration. i just tired discrimination. we have long history not speaking out or standing for themselves and i think it should be changed.
Maconald, what are you talking? “Russia created 77,000 refugees”? They wouldn’t be refugees if Georgia wouldn’t lunched it. About dissapearing population in Ossetia: Do you want live in region where war can start anytime? They got russian citizenship and moved from border to russian cities. People have kids all right? What do you think people do? Do you know how many georgian live in russia? why they in russia if georgia so pretty place? I fill sorry for georgians living in russia, cause now it going to be hassle. And Georgia and USA responsible for that as Russian goverment if they would support hassle.
Alex,
1) You better explain your Red Cross claim first. Your friends are lying you, if it is not that you are lying intentionally. I have proof that Red Cross is not here. If you cannot explain that there is no way to rationale your numbers.
2) It is cold-war mentally to think that USA-is-evil-so-Russia-is-good or vice versa. The right way is to ignore the role of USA first. It has to be judged by humanitarian situation: I assume you are a human, not chess piece of USA or Russia, right?
3) That 77000 refugees are created by Russia no doubt, even within the Russia’s casus belli. There is no reason to invade Gori. There is no reason to burn civilian houses in Georgian villages within South Ossetia. There is no reason to bring thugs and looter to kill and loot Gori. Is that so-call peace and justice and a way to punish Saakashvili by looting civilian and dropping cluster bombs everywhere except Saakashvili’s home? Why can’t Russia kill Saakashvili directly as he is so evil? That is probably Russian style of justice.
4) As for history, it should be reminded that Stalin is also a Ossetian; When Soviet decides the South Ossetia is a part of Georgia, Lenin is in power and Stalin cannot ignore Lenin; The Soviet decision is motivated by political aim, to setup influence to Georgia by Ossetia communists, and it is never a free-gift to Georgia.
Maconald, whom are you calling thugs and looters? Isn’t ir too much call people names? I guess americans troops were angels in Vietnam? You know what you tag people. Do you know them? Are you psychis? What evedence you have? Or because you american you know better? Snap out of it. You gouverment lick ass to Communist China how bad is it? You just ignore everything. Well sweet dream, sweat dream.
>There is no reason to invade Gori.
There was no invasion… It was demilitarization.
Do you remember USA invasion in Iraq? What they have done? Capture government. Kills many people.
Georgia told us, that there were 128 people dead by Russian “invasion”. As I remember, a few weeks ago NATO aviation killed about 80 civilians in Afganistan just in one attack.
So russian wanted make invasion in Georgia, Russians tank would be in Tbilisi 10 august. And killed not 128 Georgians, but 1280 or more Georgians. But all world know, that there were only 128 Georgians dead.
Answer question: Have you ever seen the invasion, where was killed only 128 people?
>As for history, it should be reminded that Stalin is also a Ossetian;
Stalin was born in Gory…
This is common to call the party you don’t as “American”. I am not American. I am Chinese. Get to the point. You have committed another USA-is-evil-so-Russia-is-good game. That is pointless to me. Not everyone blaming Russia is necessary USA or pro-USA.
“Have you ever seen the invasion, where was killed only 128 people?”
If Tshinvali is “invaded”, read it, how many dead, I repeat it is 44, and the source it from humanitarian group, much has no intention to undermine the causality:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LD435290.htm
HRW observers also witness looters.
Stalin has a Ossetian father, Besarion. Being born in Gori does not make a Ossetian child becomes non-Ossetian.
>If Tshinvali is “invaded”, read it, how many dead, I repeat
> it is 44, and the source it from humanitarian group, much
>has no intention to undermine the causality:
>http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LD435290.htm
44 was only in hospital… and 2150 was not in hospital.
Because there was no people, who can bring bodies to the hospital… People saved their lives and didn’t think about bodies.
See the first part of the list which contain people, that was killed by Georgian troops: http://www.osetinfo.ru/main/25
Google can help you to translate it. Names and the way, how every of this people was killed by Georgian troops.
What else was written by Human rights activists?
“We are very clear that some of the weapons fired by the Georgians are unacceptable under international law”
“The use of the Grad rocket launcher in urban areas is indiscriminate by nature and a breach of human rights law. Several rooms of the hospital were hit by Grads.”
So Georgians fired to the hospital by Grads… May be 44 bodies ware bodies of the doctors of the hospital?
Maconald, what do u mean “killed only 128 people?” so now 128 people it’s nothing to u. It’s just great. I guess if you r chinese and theres over billion chinese it’s might be nothing in china. but not to other world dear.
About is Stalin Ossetian or Georgian. Jews for example account ethnicity by mother side. so it depends.
>HRW observers also witness looters.
May be some Ossetians were like some Americans after Katrine… Americans looted Americans houses… Don’t you remember?
>what do u mean “killed only 128 people?” so now 128 people
>it’s nothing to u. It’s just great. I guess if you r
>chinese and theres over billion chinese it’s might be
>nothing in china. but not to other world dear.
Compare 128 and 2100… Saakashvilli send his troops to kill SO citizens… They killed 2100 SO citizens… And lost 128…
Who is aggressor? Who first killed 2100 or who then killed 128? And killing Georgian troops prevented killing more civilians in SO
Does anyone know how the Iraq war is being financed? Where are the billions of USD being pumped into the long-drawn endless war coming from? The sources are all shrouded in mystery.
The US economy is on a downward spiral at the fag end of the Bush presidency. ENRON was the first scam. God knows what’s to follow after a string of nationalizations and billion dollar bailouts by the US government. . I am sure there’s a direct relationship between the ‘hard-to-win’ war and the financial Ikes hitting the US shores one after another. It disproves the notion that increased defence spending and misguided foreign policy options to invade foreign lands can yield a positive impact on the US economy. Remember that it was the Bush era that diverted investments in the high-tech sector into the military-industrial complex. I think it was a dangerous move in the wrong direction in a country that championed democracy verbally but would ruthlessly establish it’s grip on smaller countries for energy and geopolitical gains.