It’s just a simple fact. Of coarse he is only going to play with his sons in the ocean, his wife and daughters mean nothing to him.

I don’t know which is worse, being burried alive in the sand or the soul.

Ethier way, they are slowly dieing from it.

Whenever I see a woman wearing all black like that, I don’t see a person, I see walking death.

Standing up for justice — and equality — and freedom of speech and religion — is absolutely necessary if we are going to live together on this planet. No exceptions. Speaking out against an ideology — any ideology — or in this case, Islam — must be based on these concepts.

I appreciate your position and I am aware that there are all kinds, colours and types of Muslims, with many sects and different interpretations. I am also aware that they all share certain basic beliefs, and some of these beliefs are contrary to the basic concepts mentioned above. First of all I do not consider Muslims in Western societies to be credible voices for the ‘real’ islam. They are a minority and do not have great political power. I take what happens in those countries where Muslims dominate as the standard against which I will judge Islam — that and Islam’s doctrines.

It is not just the ahadith the are problematic. For example, consider just one very troubling aspect of the Quran. A person would have to be blind not to notice that the Quran is full of special cases and exceptions –privileges granted by Allah to Mohammad only, through Mohammad only, to benefit Mohammad only, of course. Why don’t Muslims consider it suspicious that a book that was supposed to exist from all eternity has so many little rules to benefit a single person.

Among the special exceptions (in the Quran) for Mohammad are: to cut, burn and destroy orchards and fields (59:5), to attack and burn mosques and kill Muslims (9:107, 110), permission to marry for than 4 women (”this only for thee, and not for the believers” – 33:50), to put away wives (33:51), to violate the sanctity of the sacred month Rajan (which from immemorial antiquity in Arabia had been consecrated to peace) and attack infidels (Sura 2). It gets worse: by special permission captives were executed (Sura 47, 48). In another verse (8:67) Mohhammad says he must kill captives (make slaughter in the land) to prove he is a prophet. He also has permission (8:12) to inflict barbaric torture and kill his enemies (”execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land”). The Quran also gives M permission to not keep his word of honor, if it interferes with anything bringing pleasure (O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Allah has already ordained for you, the dissolution of your oaths.” -Surah 66). To control his wives, Allah also came through with a few more special rules for them: authorization to marry his daughter-in-law (33:37), to replace all his wives if they complain, as in the case when he was found with his concubine Maria the Copt in the bed of his wife Hafsa (66:3-5), or to prevent his wives from using adornments and receiving a greater allowance (33:28), to cover themselves (33:32, 59), to receive double punishment if they did wrong (33:30), and not marry again (33:53) and even to acquit his favorite wife (Aisha) of slander (24:1-22).

Rather than have an infinite number of exceptions for Muhammad, announced by Mohammud to benefit Mohammad, Allah finally resolved this issue by declaring a blank check for all sins: “There is no fault in the Prophet in what Allâh has decreed for him” (Quran 33:37). So, whatever the Prophet does is OK because he is special and the rules of conduct demanded of others don’t apply to him, because Allah made him do it.

Mohammad explained that he often receive special instructions from night to night and even changed them (”We substitute one revelation for another” – 2:106,108 – We? Plural? Allah is plural?). These divine interventions to satisfy Muhammad’s sexual and marital issues were so blatant that Aisha even snickered that “It seems to me that your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire”

It goes on and on… Mohammad gets 20% of all plunder from jihad (“And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire, a fifth share is assigned to Allah and to the Messenger” 8:41). It is doubtful that Allah ever showed up at Mohammad’s door to claim his share of the booty, so we can assume that the Prophet got 20% of the loot.

The use of the term “Allah and his Messenger” (“Obey Allah and His Messenger”; “believe in Allah and His Messenger”; “show your faith in Allah and His Messenger”; “an announcement from Allah and His Messenger”; etc…) is so frequent and blatant in the Quran that Mohammad can almost be understood to be a junior partner to Allah (“Verily those who swear allegiance to you Muhammad, indeed swear their allegiance to Allah” 48-10, “He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah” – 4:80). Hey, in Christian theology, wasn’t Lucifer’s sin the desire to be like “the most high”?

Jillian. No more theology. I spent many a long day reading the the Quran and hadith. Not impressed. The result is that just as any moderate Muslim cannot win and argument with me, so can they not win an argument with a radical. If a Muslims believes the Quran (they ALL do, moderate and radical), then they must recognize that that 1. infidels are lower than animals and 2. Muslims are to attack and subdue them. The text is very clear. Thus, the radicals have the Quran and hadeeth on their side. The only thing I don’t understand is how anybody can read these things without any uneasiness or distress.

I am old; you are young. What we are seeing is the unchecked growth of a barbaric ideology that seeks to reverse 500 years of progress. Islam wants to throw out the magna carta, the renaissance, reformation, counter reformation, the enlightenment, the bill of rights, the lessons of the French and American Revolution, the abolition of slavery, civil rights laws, the separation of church and state, the concepts of freedom of religion and speech, the emancipation of women, the idea of equality, and replace them with sharia and some fantasized version of the golden age of the Caliphs (which was marked by Muslims attacking and conquering infidels when they were not slaughtering each other in the riddah or apostasy wars. By the way, 3 of the 4 “Rightly Guided Caliphs were killed, two by Muslims for religious motives and one by a slave because a. his master took his earnings or b. because he was revolted by seeing children enslaved).

It will get worse. It is getting worse. I predict you will see the radicals grow stronger and stronger, as the moderates continue to make excuses and blame others. Our leaders will appease and then appease more again.

Is this hate or a stand on principles? It is my interpretation of events and Islamic doctrine. Nobody does anybody (including Muslims) a favor by not being honest. They may not like what I say but it is sincere and it seems to me that my understanding of things fits reality better than their beliefs (ie, Islam means peace but it is misunderstood and corrupted by a few bad people). I am not asking you to believe me. Just watch and study. Be skeptical. One thing is for sure, the future will be intriguing (as the Chinese say “may you live in interesting times”). It probably won’t be fun, but it will be interesting.

I apologize for the length of this post. I got carried away.

Jay

You take care and thank you for your work here at Global Voices. It is a great site and has an interesting range of topics and opinions from all over our small planet.

Man of the book

I recently attended a confirmation ceremony at a Catholic Church….all in all the service just beautiful! In the end I walked away thinking my experience wouldn’t have been nearly as enriching had the priest not told the story of Saint Stephen the Martyr. At one point I thought to myself, what a gruesomely violent and depressing tale to share with a bunch of young kids who are already plenty scared and excited with all the new things they’re having to experience as they’re getting ready to enter adulthood. I just hope that in these delicate times we live in, the message they got out of it was a positive one and not that it’s OK to just go ahead and martyr themselves in the name of religion. But knowing the short attention span kids have nowadays, they probably forgot all about it the next day…at least I hope so. ;D

I say there is no reason we shouldn’t be able to get along.
Cheers!
Najia

Yes, I have personally, in my lifetime, met plenty of Muslims who do not fully agree with hadiths. I cannot quote you a link, because I’m talking about conversations with humans (although Irshad Manji’s site might offer you some nice information – mind you, I don’t agree with everything she says, but she does confirm what I’m saying)

The problem is that you seem to assume that Islam and Muslims are the same thing. They’re not. While there are certainly plenty of Orthodox Muslims who take every word of the Qur’an and hadiths for granted, there are plenty others who do not. Either way, Muslims are humans, born into a particular religion. You don’t have to like their religion, but can’t you consider the fact that they are not one entity encompassing a single belief?

For the record, I’m not Muslim and I don’t particularly care for much of Islam’s beliefs. But that doesn’t mean I won’t stand up for injustice where I see it.

Jillian

Are you saying you have seen a Muslim condemn the many vile things described in the hadith and Quran? (I am talking about raids, plunder, enslavement of men women and children, murder of critics, toprture, rape and wife-beating). Please tell me where. Give me the name of the site. Please.

This not a question of “intolerance” – the only issue is if what I say is true or not. Am I lying? Am I making things up. To call me intolerant means nothing. Or is being “intolerant” of hate and violence a bad thing?

Here is a reference (link) for you to read:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4345

Tell me if you can find anything morally wrong in the passage? Did Abu Bakr (later one of the so-called “Righteous Caliph) and the “Messanger of Allah” act properly?

Your response is typical of that I get from Muslims. They don’t like to hear things that may cause them to think and make judgements. So, they have two courses of action, to silence the speaker or to suppress the words. The question of whether or not the words are true is not to be considered or researched.

This is why things never change, and why it will grow worse. All the so-called condemnations of terrorism mean nothing because those vile actions can be fully justified by the sacred words of the Quran and hadith. That is tragic, but true and so the terror never ends.

Enough for now. Here is another verse about terror for you to think about.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.220

Take care and think about these things…

Jay

Here is another little story for you.
My sister works at branch of city hall in Amsterdam and part of her duties is performing marriages. A few months ago she told me she had to marry a Dutch-Moroccan couple and the whole ceremony was totally bizarre. The bride and groom were in their early twenties, they were both born in Holland. The bride was wearing a burqa and the groom had a long beard and wore a 3baya. The bride’s sister was the only other person present, for the sole purpose of giving her sister away. She stood between the bride and groom while the marriage ceremony was being performed. In the end when they were pronounced husband and wife, to make it all official, the sister took the bride and groom’s hands and put them in each other’s hands without saying a word, after which they collected their marriage certificate and walked away hand in hand.

I said to my sister, now wait a minute, don’t they know that their marriage isn’t even considered legal in Islam? She said the whole thing was just too bizarre for words, I can’t even imagine what must be going through those people’s minds….I’m not even sure if their religious garb was even an indication of their own religious beliefs or some silly new trend they thought was cool and different.

Fact is there are too many things going on nowadays that have suddenly become religious custom in Islam…I just can’t keep up anymore, I blame it all on politics driving ignorance.

Christian soldier, I find you extremely judgemental and intolerent. As a Muslim myself I never turn down an opportunity to go to church when I’m invited by my Christian friends. I love going to Church, but the thing I don’t care for as much is all the additional manmade customs during the ceremony…I find them distracting from the purpose of going there to connect with God.