i am white, i am male, and i am south african.

according to this regime, i am not a citzen of this country, even though i was born here. i have no ‘right’ to work, no right to say anything remotely political. i am called a racist purely because of who i am (physically). but i tell you this, i would rather be labelled (incorrectly) as a racist than a xenophobic genocidal black person.

THE FORMERLY OPPRESSED IS NOW THE RACIST OPPRESSOR!

(sorry: xenophobic, apparrently black people here are not racists, only white people are??!???)

i am disgusted to be known as a south african. this once ‘rainbow nation’is dead. for the first time in my life i am truly scared to live here. it is so worrying that the average black person around me has nothing to say about what is going on.. does the silence mean support?? why did it take our “leader” so long to say something?? does he secretly support what is going on.. another quiet diplomacy effort?

i fear for my life (the white population, or colonialists as we are called, are next) if you think i am talking rubbish, google ‘julius malema’ and see what i am talking about.

p.s. the lower case is deliberate, just incase you were wondering

They say that white people have had the impression that africans are barbaric since the times of colonialism. We fought against that stereotype and just when we begin to free ourselves from this idea, we go and do this. We have a need to live up to the stereotypes and perhaps we need to reconsider.

Just know that those who sit and watch these atrocities in silence are as bad as the perpetrators themselves.

Solana
co-moderator

["Now let’s discuss facts and not perceptions."]
You have been the one presenting perceptions as facts. I will hold up your words to scrutiny to confirm this.

["There are illegal immigrants in south africa, more than any other country in the world.The 5 million number is an estimate of the govt 3-4 yrs after the election of the 1st democratic govt in 1994,this was in 1998 during a population census.the 5 million number of illegal immigrants was before the total collapse of zimbabwe and the influx of zimbabwen illegal immigrants we’ ve been seeing since 2000.The real number of illegal immigrants is believed to be around 15 million people."]
["As far as the number of illegal immigrants are concerned there is no country in the world that knows exactly how many are there in their respective countries ,what they have are estimations based on scientific methods and in south africa most institutes put the numbers between 10 -15 million illegal immigrants."]
What are the sources you are quoting? Throwing numbers is very easy. Substantiating them is more difficult. When challenged on your 15 million illegal immigrant assertion, you suddenly changed it to a range of 10-15 million and ascribed the numbers to “institutes” in South Africa. What institutes? Can you name them and identify what mathematical models and assumptions they used in arriving the numbers you are peddling? Even SAIRR’s estimates are between 3-5 million.

["I’m a pan africanist and beleive that the only way for africans to saveguard and benefit from their ernomous natural resources is for them to unite into one country,but until then we south africans are not going to pay for the incompetence of african leaders in creating sound economies in their countries."]
You are no pan-africanist. Stop deluding yourself. Your reasoning and rhetoric smacks of xenophobia. It will be in your best interest to educate yourself on what Pan-Africanism means before arrogating such a label to yourself. A self-proclaimed pan-africanist who believes that other Africans have no place in partaking of South African prosperity? The current wave of prosperity South Africa has enjoyed is because of foreign direct investment, which is the biggest in Africa since 1994 and the impression of stability that has been promoted by your leaders through some of their economic policies. Those jobs that you claim are being taken by illegal immigrants (which you have not been able to substantiate) can easily be wiped out by the senseless acts of your compatriots. Once investor confidence is shaken in your economy, there will be capital flight out of South Africa, which is part of what is sad about this whole event. The same people who think that by violence they will get jobs will only end up losing more jobs. Let the truth be told, the architects of apartheid built the economy of South Africa, not your current leaders. None of the homelands managed by black South Africans under apartheid was better than most African countries. By the way, the South African economy is being sustained by the offspring of the people who built it. What your leaders have done is to compel them to share some of the wealth with black South Africans. What the rest of Africa and the World fought against was the policy of apartheid that closed the door of opportunity to non-white South Africans such as you. You are reaping the benefit of the many years of struggle by your leaders working in concert with other African and world leaders. No African living in South Africa believes that South Africa owes them contrary to your assertion ["This is the sick mentality of africans who somehow beleive that south africa owes them a living,that they have a right to benefit from south africa’s prosperity"]. Generally, immigrants all over the world whether legal or illegal move to places, which they perceive will present better opportunities to them. Many Africans moved to South Africa for the same reason.
If the immigration laws of South Africa are as liberal as you so self-righteously assert, there won’t be illegal immigrants in South Africa at all because they would all have been issued papers. Have you ever been to any of the Home Affairs Department offices to see how foreigners with legitimate means and reasons to be in South Africa are treated once they are identified as being from another African country? Do you know the draconian demands placed on other Africans when they apply for South African visas at your numerous High Commissions/Embassies around the African continent? Has it occurred to you that the treatment given to the so-called legal immigrants of which you speak from Europe and USA who do not offend your sensibilities is different from the shoddy treatment meted out to other Africans? {” Most people who come to south africa legally are from the UK, USA and Germany.We south africans consider it an insult to come here illegally when it is so much easy to get a visa.”} . Obviously, you are not very conversant with your own country’s immigration records.
It appears to me that you do not know the difference between asylum and immigration even though both are related. Otherwise, you would not have attempted to lump them together. [" Last year (2007) South africa gave the highest number of asylums than any other country in the world."]. It is an attempt to compare apples with oranges. First off, laws governing asylum are generally different from the general immigration laws. South Africa did not grant the most asylums in the world. Go check the figures from the UNHCR. South Africa has the highest number of asylum seekers and thus received the highest number of asylum applications (that is not in dispute) but that is not the same thing as granting asylums. For your information, other countries granted many more asylums than South Africa. Granting asylum means a decision is reached favorable to the asylum seeker, not just taking the application/claim.
Secondly, asylum seekers cannot be sent away when a decision has not been reached on the claim. Thirdly, you may want to ask why South Africa has attracted asylum seekers. Do you think it is to take your jobs? No! Asylum seekers are the persecuted people from their places of origin seeking some form of refuge from their persecutors. Many of your leaders sought refuge from the apartheid government in various countries. So, they understand the term asylum. Perhaps, that’s why the asylum laws in South Africa may appear to be attractive to asylum seekers. However, it has not necessarily translated into more asylums than other countries in the world, as you would want people to believe.
On the other hand, immigrants, in general, are people seeking better opportunities. So, these 2 groups should not be lumped together.

["I never said african countries did not help to fight apartheid,to clearify i said even during the darkest days of apartheid south africans never left south africa in large numbers as we are witnessing for example with zimbabwe.This is one of the arguments i hear all the time."]
You claimed you never said other African countries did not help. It might be useful for you to clarify what you meant by the following statement: ["one more thing it is widely claimed that during the days of apartheid african countries cared for south african refugees ,that is a blatant lie."]

[“When south africans were fighting a brutal system,most africans were supporting and maintaining dictators who looted their countries.”]
It is obvious that you do not understand anything about other African countries. That may be a by-product of the “mis-education” you received under apartheid. You will be doing yourself a favor by re-educating yourself about the African continent as whole. What you should realize is the fact that some of those dictators were people who fought against colonialism and became leaders in their respective countries but could not govern properly. When the people protested and questioned the leaders, they turned against the people in most cases using the security apparatus of the state and entrenched themselves in power. Over time, they became dictators to the people they initially helped to liberate. That has been the story of many African states including Zimbabwe, South Africa’s neighbor. None of the states had the people propping up dictators as you suggested. As a matter of fact, most dictators received help from outside to oppress and suppress their own people. An example close to you was Mobutu Sese Seko of Zaire (now DRC) who received help from the apartheid government of South Africa and the USA.

[“What are you proposing that south africa opens it’s borders to how many 20 ,30 or even 50 million illegals?”]
I have made no such proposal. If your government looks at its current immigration policy and sees its failure, then, it should act to reverse such a policy and replace it with what works for the country. I don’t see how the immigrants are responsible for the failure of government policy and why they should be ‘necklaced’, burnt, and their belongings looted. I cannot understand how any rationally thinking individual can attempt to defend such barbaric acts as the way to address undocumented immigration or rationalize them

.
[“The south african govt has built 2-3 million homes since 1994 for poor people ,that means most poor south africans by now should have been given this low-cost homes,which were built for them mind you , not for refugees or any kind off immigrant but for poor south africans.Because of corruption of some officials a lot of these houses are owned by illegal immigrants.There are cases,proven,of foriegners owning up to 15 low-cost houses and renting them out.These are homes which the govt build solely to be awarded to poor south africans.”]
Can you substantiate this allegation of the foreigners owning these homes and renting them out? This is another perception on your part that you are trying to pass off as a fact. For one to own one of those homes, the individual has to document that he/she is off South African origin and has an ID document. Illegal immigrants do not have ID documents. Anyone who has an ID document in South Africa is not an illegal immigrant. Obviously, the Department of Home Affairs recognizes such an individual as being legally resident in South Africa; otherwise, the ID document would not have been issued.
I am very much aware of the story of ownership of these low-income houses you wrote about. Many of these homes are owned by other South Africans who acquire several of them and rent them out to their compatriots while they are busy moving to “better” parts of the cities from the rent money they collect. This is information reported by such South African owners who are acquaintances.
If there are corrupt officials “selling” houses to foreigners, should they not be arrested and prosecuted? Where in your write up did you call for such corrupt officials to be relieved of their responsibilities and brought to justice?

[“Facts are between 1990 -2000 South africa was the largest investor in africa with investment totalling around $12,5 billion ahead of the USA with $10 billion,followed by France,UK and Germany.As i mentioned on the last postage i’m not up to date with the latest figures,but what i just mentioned is a fact and not a perception.”]
Again, what facts? Indeed, South Africa is investing substantially into the rest of Africa. What I take issue with is the statement of being the “largest investor.” I challenge you to provide your source rather than hiding behind obscure sources. If you are not up to date with figures, how can you then assert that your statements are facts? What is(are) your source(s)? UNCTAD, SARB, or BusinessMap?

[“Coming back to the point of south african investment in africa ,i don’t know in which african country you stay ,but i can assure you that somehow south african investments might be part of your daily life”]
Yes, South Africa is a part of my daily life. I am a permanent resident of South Africa and I am heavily invested in the real estate and financial markets of South Africa. I do not work for any South African individual or corporate organization lest I be accused of stealing jobs meant for South Africans. And all the people working for me are South Africans and not some illegal immigrants. It is people like me that are feeding and moving your economy along. Do not blow it. If South Africa experiences substantial capital flight from senseless violent attacks on foreigners, those poor people you are talking about may end up on the other side of the fence in Zimbabwe or some other African country. Capital flight from Zimbabwe was what drove many Zimbabweans into your country in the first place.

To say Thabo Mbeki is doing nothing about this matter is pretty obvious, we all know the poor man lost power during the ANC conference in Polokwane. There is no reason to point fingers when we all know that those responsible will play it both ways. I hear of many being arrested in certain areas, denied bail when we know very well how corrupt our system is. The people who support the government prior 1994 are laughing their lungs out, sitting back and talking amongst themselves how they’ve longed for a time like this to occur.

How can you blame our fellow brothers and sisters who would do anything for survival unlike waiting for the government to do everything for you, seek employment and not rest until they’ve found a job regardless of what it is be on the wrong? You can’t blame them for poverty, it has always been an issue. If you feel that they are taking your job, why don’t you get up your lazy behind and beat them to it. Home ground advantage – isn’t that what it’s called?????

phew…..

Fyfy*