When the Olympic torch relay approaches China, Mo Yang saw how the “protection” for this torch relay provided by oversea Chinese hurts China.
这次奥运火炬全球传递基本上是被中国的海外愤青给搞砸了[…]。圣火传递开始阶段，在伦敦和巴黎藏独分子出来破坏，抢夺火炬，阻挠传递的进行。这个时候，理亏的是藏独分子。[…]如果我们能够保持冷静，采取克制[…]，继续按部就班地进行传递接力，把藏独破坏问题完全交给各国警察来处理，那么，[…]各国人民会说：“噢，看来，中国人确实是一心一意要办 好奥运会的，确实是把体育和政治分开的。”[…]但是，不知从哪里跳出来一大堆海外“爱国华人”，[…]反而给中国的形象带来了负面影响。
This torch relay around the world was sabotaged by those “patriotic” oversea Chinese. In the beginning when the torch was relayed in London and Paris, the people supporting Tibet tried to get the torch and stop the relay. At that time, those people did not have good excuse for what they did.[…] If we could keep calm, be composed, […] and let the relay be what it should be—let the police in other countries take care of those protestants–people all over the world would say, “well, we can see Chinese really want to hold a successful Olympic Game, and they do not mix athletics and politics together.”[…] However, these “patriotic Chinese” in other countries showed up out of no where,[…] and they brought negative influence to China's image.
Wan-Er-Bu-Liou-Mang-Gan-Ga analyzed why there are so many angry “patriots”:
这段时间的一系列事件，为什么会激起中国那么多人的愤怒？固然，事件本身没办法不让我们愤怒。但我总觉得这里面有不少是盲目，是被煽动起来的，或者有些愤怒只是冲着事件的本身，而忽略了探析事件背后的一系列复杂的原因。简洁点说：因为我们以往的印象中国是和谐的，是他国的形象中是美好的，当这突如其来的一系列事件，让我们知道其实并不是完美的，形成了巨大的心理落差，愤怒的声音愈加得强烈。
Why do events occurred these days make so many Chinese angry? Well, the events do make us angry. However, I feel there is blindness in the anger, which is stirred up. On the other hand, the anger only points at these events but ignores the complicate background behind these events. Let me put it simple: Our impression of China is harmonic, and we think foreigners have good impression on us. When these events occurred, we found not everything is as perfect as we think, and this cognitive conflict makes our anger more furious.
On the other hand, Hua-Bin Jing argued if doing these anti-boycott activities is patriotic, not everyone can be this kind of patriotic:
有网友说‘既为奥运会捐款，还为海外势力抵制奥运会而大声疾呼；这样的人不爱国，难道是那些无动于衷的人爱国’。
Some people said, ‘if a person donates money to the Olympic Game in Beijing and confronts the boycott to the Olympic game in other countries, how can we say this person is not patriotic? Would you say the people who do not care patriotic?'
如此说来，腐败分子的确比我们下岗人员爱国；因为我们下岗人既没有钱捐，也没有时间来参加活动。是啊！我们机关事业单位的人参加游行抗议，国家还给他们钱；而我们下岗人员参加游行抗议，却不知谁给我们工资。
If this is how we define a patriot, those corrupt people are more patriotic than us, who are laid off. We do not have money to donate, and we do not have time to join these activities. Well, the government paid people working in institutions money if they joined these protests, but we do not know who would pay us if we joined these protests.
腐败分子，是指那些贪污受贿、生活腐化、以权谋私、侵吞国家或集体财产等的人。
Corrupt people means people who are corrupt in the government and in their own lives. They embezzle the money of our country, which is we people's property.
同样是祖国的儿女，也有亲疏贵贱之分；看我们的高管，[…]年薪6000多万。而老百姓[…]收入也不到他的六千分之一；也就是说 我们的高管一年，相当于老百姓的6000年。祖国这样爱他们，他们能不爱国吗；因为他们并不是公平竞争的结果，[…]你比他们能力强，祖国只爱他们而不爱你；你有什么办法呢。
We are all sons and daughters of our country, but we are treated differently. Look at the elite:[…] their salary is more than sixty millions RMB. However, the average salary of us is less than their 1/6000. In other words, an year for them is 6000 years for a common person. Our country loves them so much, so how can they not love this country?–They become elite not from fair competition.[…] Maybe your ability is better than theirs, but the country still loves them more. What can you do?
这爱国是遗传的，下岗人员没有能力爱国；他们的子女同样也没有能力爱国。看我们的下岗人员的子女，不是因为没有钱上大学而过早地为生活奔波；就是因为贷款读书而背包袱。
As a result, patriotism is inherited. We people without job cannot be patriotic, and our children are not able to be, either. Look at our children, they either work when they are very young because they do not have money to attend colleges or live very hard because of the loan.
Da-Da-De-You discussed how to define the target for patriotism,
如果国只是民族的、文化的概念，则腐败分子是不爱国的，它们只是卖国贼。如果“国”即政权，当然，它们就是最爱国的一群人，因为正是这样的国给了它们腐败的机会。
If the target is ethnicity- or culture-based concept, those corrupt people are not patriotic. Instead, they sell our country. If the target is the government, the ruling party, of course, they are the most patriotic, because this government gives them opportunity to be corrupt.
Feng-Yen-Feng-You said those “patriots” oversea are traitors:
那些闹得最欢的海外”爱国人士”，[…]他们真要爱国，就应该废掉他们洋国公民身份，撕碎绿卡，回国来。按他们爱国的标准，他们中有的人是双重的背叛：先是背叛了生养他的祖国，投奔了被他们所视为的”敌国”；然后又背叛了他们所属的洋国，声称爱他们所属的洋国的”敌国”。
Those oversea “patriots” acted too furious.[…] If they really love our country, they should void their identity as foreigners, rip their green cards, and come back China. Based on their standard of patriotism, some of them are traitors to two countries: they betrayed their motherland to be citizens in a country they viewed as “enemy,” and they betray those countries and claim they belong to the “enemy” of those countries.
Touch123456 also argued what a patriot should do,
反腐败才是真正的爱国, 因为他们这群混蛋正在从人民身上喝血。
Anti-corrupt is what a patriot should do, because those corrupt assholes are sucking our blood.
You-Ren Li said the correct way to patriotism is to study the history and to find a way to build a new country.
作为一个爱国青年，要知道怎么爱国，首要的便是了解这个国家的历史。[…]知道历史的细节，便明了这个国家真正需要个体做的是什么。 […]“五四”的传统不是“破坏”，而是反省之后重建，反省历史，反省传统，创造一个经济、制度、文化、科技、人性上都崭新的国家。
Being a young patriot, the first thing we should do is studying this country's history if we want to know how to be patriotic.[…] If we know history, we know what we really need to do for this country.[…] The tradition of
May Fourth Movement is not to destroy but to create after reflection. Reflecting the history and tradition, and we can build a new country, economically, systematically, culturally, technologically, and humanistically.
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May 2nd, 2008 at 12:55 pm Karze: 463
…
Unlike Chinese we don’t eat all thats is moving. From worms to rats, snake to dog, crab to jelly fish, tiger to dog and even mosquito.
There is saying in Chinese “Everything can be eaten theat moves”,
This is what our friend Karze has to say about Chinese on the other thread…I trust he does not speak for all of Free Tibet movement? ;)
@ifan
I trust you know about the people who attacked the torch runners? If you need evidence, please go find them yourself. It’s all over the news. As for this board, see my prior post. Nice, right?
As far as going against the majority of the Chinese people, this is a feeling, the same as you don’t need the polls to tell you that Bush is unpopular in US. You or the well meaning people may choose to not believe this and still believe these protests are levied only against the CCP and not against the people of China; that is your choice; but ignoring that does no good for whatever goals you might want to reach. All my friends who were protesting against the Chinese government in 1989 are entirely on the side of promoting Olympics this time; some of them I know who have terrible things done to them by the CCP in the past. That says a lot.
The Chinese student arrested in Seoul was in fact Chinese. He was not alone. He was with a large group of students from a Chinese Student Association in Pusan. They wore white t-shirts with the name of their student group, which made them easy to catch. The student was shown on Korean television. He could not speak Korean fluently. It is naive to think a Chinese cannot be violent, it must have been a “Korean faker.” Every country has its idiots.
The Chinese who came to the torch relay included both Chinese students and Chinese residents of Korea.
Kneecap is right that Chinese students attacked not just Tibet protestors but also North Korea human rights protestors. China signed the UN agreement to protect refugees, yet it sends back North Korean refugees in violation of the agreement. It is not anti-Chinese to protest the fact that the Chinese government does not respect a UN agreement which it signed.
And it is important to note that the North Korean human rights protestors did not try to stop the torch relay. They were across from Olympic Park. The Chinese students saw them and crossed the street to confront them.
I think a bit of logic would help this:
Why would the Communist Party NOT try to keep control PRC students who go overseas? They have such tight control in China, you expect them to give it all up completely when their children go to the USA or other places to study?
If we discourage brain drain, then those students should come back. If they are in the youth leage (i.e. will be in party later), then when they come back they have to write about their experiences in the foreign country and re-state their patriotism to China, and I’m sure many eye is kept on them.
If they are not in the party, the control is a lot less, but if the party finds out they have been involved in some non-pro-China political events, then I am sure trouble will happen when they get back!
Also remember, the students who really like a certain foreign country or really want to move abroad will try their best to get out and stay out while they are studying aborad. But the majority of the Chinese who go don’t really want to learn about that other country’s culture, they perhaps don’t care which country they go to, they just want to put that on their resume so they can get more money in the future. So why should they assimilate and learn? Why shouldn’t they continue to act like party-control students when they are abroad?
If the party says ‘Counter-protest!’ they will ask ‘How hard should we throw the rocks?’
Jesse:
Your flawless logic shines through rather brilliantly!!
Perhaps, I think a bit of logic lesson would help.
Where should I begin?
Here are a few “blemishes” that pop right out in your post.
1. Begging the question
2. Faulty premise
3. Appeal to belief
4. Slippery slope
Plus, I asked “Kneecap” whether they CAN, not whether they WANT TO. If you don’t understand the difference, then it is going to be quite hard to carry out a rational conversation.
But there is a comforting fact though. A lot of your flag waving, ultra-nationalistic, “Pro-China” counterparts make the same kind of crappy arguments too. Tell me if the following sounds familiar: “The Pro-Tibet and Anti-China protesters don’t know what they are talking about. Most don’t even know where Tibet is (this part is true, you can youtube it). They are brainwashed by the FBI, CIA, and “Homeland Insecurity”. They are just echoing whatever the FBI, CIA, and the other guys beam to their fillings. What all know that the CIA implant computer chips (in tooth fillings, Vaccines, and whatever you can fill in the blank) in their citizens and allies. Why else would they have a differing opinion?”
You do understand how ridiculous and dismissive this kind of arguments can be, right?
Best
Kain
my_mother>>
Perhaps I stand corrected. I wasn’t at the rallies in SF, so you’d know better than I what the composition of the crowd was like. But can we at least agree that there’s evidence that the Chinese consulates abroad have actively encouraged Chinese students to take part in these rallies? And they did so despite knowing the problems that likely would occur.
To Paren,
The argument by China about the North Korean refugee is that (if I remember correctly) there is a difference between political refugees and economic refugees. The economic refugees will be sent back to China. In reality, if all the refugees from North Korea will be sent to South, assuming, I am not sure whether South Korea will agree. Secondly, that will INDUCE a refugee wave from North Korea. It is not benefitial to China’s interest. Why should China do that? (I am not judging right or wrong.)
As for the pro-China students fighting in Korea, I believe the organizor surely told them not to use violence. Unfortunately, some of them used as the anger burst. It is stupid and not worth. Young men, too emotional, not smart enough. Again, it is against China’s interest as they know clearly. I have to mention that a lot of sentiment in Korea is about North Korea-China-South Korea. Tibet topic is just an OPPORTUNITY, rather a real issue.
Jesse,
I am kind of lost in your comment 25. However, clearly you dont understand Chinese culture very much. Sure, Chinese went oversea for study. But their care towards homeland will be always there, even if China is more controlled and even backward.
To all the China haters here, (sorry to call you so)
Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has done a good job to develop the country into worldmap again. Although they are still far from democratic party, the Chinese people clearly dont care too much about demoncracy as you guys do. To ordinary people, money, house, food and even cars are more important than the ideology. That is why they are showing the support to the government. Torch relay just proved it. Calling them brain washed is simply lack of respects to them.
What China has achieved in last 30 years is way more than What China had been trying to achieve in the last 300-500 years. If you really spent time to study Chinese history from Ming Dynasty onwards.
Chinese all know. But you guys dont. That is where the gap is.
If your neighbor brings a coffin into your wedding, what would you do?
@Paren
My personal belief is that Olympics events should not be a stage for any political issue; but if people chose to make that a political stage, no violence should be used. This applies to both sides.
Now before you say NK refugees are not political, let me remind you that there are 2 land borders to NK; why do we not hear more pressure to open up the southern border and why SK has not opened any NK refugee camps? Why is there not any international outcry?
If China is really going to crack down on NK refugees, I doubt there can be as many NK refugees working in North East China as there are now. You should appreciate the Chinese position and take what you can get.
Its sheer JINGOISM.