Last week, the Macedonian blogosphere buzzed about Greece's obstruction of Macedonia's NATO entry. This post presents a set of typical initial reactions to this news.
Filip Petrovski described (MKD) the atmosphere in Macedonia several days before the NATO Summit:
The tension in the air is incredible. The upcoming NATO Summit in Bucharest created a heavy atmosphere of expectation in the region. It is absolutely impossible to predict what will happen there. Expecting closure is already unavoidable part of our lives, of all everyday discussions… I recently observed two friends who had different opinions about Macedonia's stance on the latest proposal by the mediator Nimetz. I've known these two persons for a while, and I have never seen them being nervous, aggressive or intolerant of each other on political or historical issues. But this time it wasn't so. One of them simply got up and left in the middle of the discussion.
On the night of April 2, upon learning that Greece would stop NATO from reaching a consensus on invitation of new members, dozens of Macedonian bloggers reacted with angry posts.
Some placed pictures of the current Macedonian flag on their sites, while others chose to display (MKD) Macedonia's 1992-1995 flag, which carried the Vergina Sun symbol and is no longer in use due to Greek objections. Many, including Toast Government (MKD), expressed an opinion that the goal of Greece is to completely negate the Macedonian identity and eradicate the nation. Along with congratulations to Croatia and Albania (MKD), the countries that succeeded in receiving NATO invitations, some bloggers recommended (MKD) that Macedonians unite in the time of a calamity and offered ideas (MKD) to the Macedonian government on how to act in the future.
The next day, there seemed to be more optimism in bloggers' responses; some included video clips with Macedonian music in their posts. One blogger wrote (MKD) that this was not the “end of the world”:
Since morning, people around me seem possessed by some kind of madness or hysteria. They come and go out of my office, and I hear wailing, sighs, conversations about NATO, […] VETO […] …
I see higher spirits on the blogs, but they seem to slide into it, too. Oh, what shall we do, too bad for our youth, loads of such stuff… Hey, people! You were not this scared when the war started in 2001! Come on, let's all cry out to heaven and wait for the judgment day. As far as I can see, the Sun rose up again, my house is still in the same place, and the work I have to do is still waiting for me!!!
Zoriv commented (MKD) ironically on the Greek attempts to monopolize the world's historical heritage, saying that the true heir of Alexander the Great would not show fear that “his country could be invaded by a nation which is five times smaller.”
Anti and Bi (MKD), bloggers who have been promoting principled pacifism for years and advocated Macedonia's non-involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, reiterated their stance against participation in military alliances.
Kalina reacted (MKD) to the new breed of skepticism towards NATO and EU integration, pointing out that after the failure at the NATO Summit, some inconsistent analysts, who have never before questioned this long-term strategic objective of the country, started talking that maybe Macedonia should give up trying to gain membership in these international institutions.
Human rights experts Mirjana Najcevska and Zharko Trajanoski (MKD), held the government accountable for failing to fulfill its obligation to provide NATO membership for Macedonia. The latter warned that the huge obstructive force of Greece could not be the sole excuse for all Macedonian failures.
Bazhdardzhijata criticized (MKD) the Macedonian journalists who protested by leaving the press conference of Greek Minister of Foreign Affairs in Bucharest:
I still can't get over the prideful stupidity of these journalists. Instead of staying at the event and bombarding with revealing questions, which would have caught the Greek fascist policies with their pants down, they decided to leave. And the way they left! They did not make any noise, they just turned their backs on them. After such a departure, I am sure Dora [Bakoyannis] sincerely and silently thanked them.
In the following days, some Macedonian bloggers realized how important it was to communicate about these issue with the world and started publishing more English-language posts.
VBB used historical examples to emphasize that Greek arguments were unsustainable:
There's an island called Ireland. Because of historical reasons similar to those described above, that geographical region became divided between the Republic of Ireland (an independent state like the Republic of Macedonia) and Northern Ireland, a constituent unit of another country- the United Kingdom (similar case as the Greek province of Macedonia). The British crown has imposed harsh measures on its Irish possesions, that also included colonising loyalist elements from Great Britain. Basically its the same story as with Greece. However, the difference is that, today the UK does not demand from the Republic of Ireland to change its constitutional name.
Taking into account the role that politics plays in Macedonia's daily life, it is quite possible that NATO integration will remain one of the hottest political subjects for Macedonian bloggers in the near future.
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I think the issue of Macedonia completely changes face depending on the way you see it.
From a right government point of view, focus is given on ‘national pride’and sovereignty; and the name issue becomes very important. This is because of the way ‘right’ thinking people define themselves as ‘greeks’ or ‘macedonians’. It assumes that all greeks and all macedonians are two homogenous mixtures of individuals that share the same language, religion, culture, aspirations and interests. Therefore, these two groups have conflicting interests.
On the other hand, from a more ‘left’ point of view, focus is pointed at the interests of the public regardless of race, religion and culture. National issues are still importand but from a scope that will benefit the interests of the public and not the international interests which are seen as the enemy by most leftinsts. From this point of view, NATO and the EU are institutions that promote the interests of the capitalist elite and ‘left’ thinking people are against their countries entering such institutions. Also these and other such institutions heve received harsh criticism on the way they have reacted on international issued like the american wars. Personaly i don’t trust it when people of great power meet behing closed doors.
Obviously the two points of view above are the two extremes and public opinion is spread across the political spectrum. I think polls are inaccurate in this issue because the answers people give realy depend on how the question is asked. For example: If the question in a greek poll is ‘Should Fyrom be invited to enter Nato with the name Republic of macedonia?’, the vast majority would be no. But if the question was ‘Would you like to see NATO expand to the balkans?, you would get a radicaly different image. Ok, maybe the questions on the example are not perfect but i think you get my drift.
Personaly, I think greek and macedonian people have many things to connect us and only one to seperate us. I see that the majority of the public in greece don’t want the term macedonia at all for fyrom. And in macedonia, this is the only way they define themselves. I cannot hate someone because he was born on the wrong side of the border. And i think that people who live next to the border have more common interests with each other than twith people who live in the capitals, hundred of kilometers away. Both sides have grand parents who were killed in wars for this land and i think any change of land would bring war. This is not for the interest of either the skopjians or the greeks. This would only be good for albania who would find a chance to claim parts of both and for the international vultures that want more control on the borders of russia. And also for russia who is the greatest investor in the region. My best reaction is to unite with the people of skopjie and try to produce a common strategy for the region benefiting both of our people. I would leave the name issue for later on when we are already alies and we have more interest by solving it. After all i think this whole thing will take a different timbre when bush is out of the way. I don’t want to see a new middle east in the balkans and i think the same goes for the rest of the countries in the balkans.
Based on historical facts Macedonia is indisputably part of Greece. Those who believe the opposite have other motives on the dark side and certainly need to learn their history before commending. Yianni K (in China).
Yianni, those who dispute the Hellenic nature of Macedonia don’t need to get their facts straight- they first need to be issued one of these special jackets with the extra long sleeves, a lobotomy and a padded cell and then if they still have any semblance of mental faculty can they only learn the truth.
Give it Spokians- soon you will be starving and change your identity all over again to ensure your survival. Hellas spits on you and your supporters; we’ve already slapped America around on Afghanistan, Iraq, the Veto and now SouthStream; ain’t nobody messing with us.
Hellenic Headbreaker, you are exactly what i hate about greeks. Even if i am greek myself. Don’t even dare to bring up the ancient greece story because the ancients would be ashamed of you. We are supposed to be the first ‘civilised’ nation but it looks like you have forgoten all that. Go live in the states or something.
Arrian and ancient greek historian says
[Book II - Battle of Issus] “Darius’ Greeks fought to thrust the Macedonians back into the water and save the day for their left wing, already in retreat, while the Macedonians, in their turn, with Alexander’s triumph plain before their eyes, were determined to equal his success and not forfeit the proud title of invincible, hitherto universally bestowed upon them. The fight was further embittered by the old racial rivalry of Greek and Macedonian.” [p.119]
He also says:
“The same painstaking attention to details is evident in administrative matters. Appointments of governors are duly mentioned, and throughout his book Arrian is careful to give the father’s name in the case of Macedonians, e.g. Ptolemy son of Lagus, and in the case of Greeks their city of origin.” [p.25]
Demosthenes an ancient greek orator says:
“… not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave” - Demosthenes, Third Philippic, 31. The famous words that this Greek orator from Athens used to describe the Macedonian king Philip II, the father of Alexander the Great, prior to Philip?s conquest of Greece.
SO THIS PROVES SOMETHING THAT IN 1913 THE GREEK STATE(MADE BY ENGLAND) STOLE 51% OF MACEDONIAN LAND,and in 1948 General Metaxas killed more than 150.000 Macedonians and exiled also a big numver of Macedonians.But the macedonians still live in Aegean Part despite all the problems greeks are trying to do to them,like for example not letting the to form a parti of their own even do that is a basic human right.
Greek fascism still lives on besides that General Metaxas death.
MACEDONIA TO THE MACEDONIANS - William Gladstone
If you google ‘william gladstone macedonia’, the first link will be mr gladstone’s sad(in my opinion) attack on wikipedia because it wouldn’t accept the opinion he was trying to pass. Mr gladstone please be more careful with the traces you leave on the internet. People are not stupid anymore and don’t accept your propaganda. Stop spreading hate or macedonia will be either american or russian in a few years time.
I think you dont google much do you?
William Ewart Gladstone (29 December 1809 – 19 May 1898) was a British Liberal Party statesman and Prime Minister (1868–74, 1880–85, 1886 and 1892–94).
He is and english (british) Politician from the 19 century what Macedonian Propaganda?
Macedonia did not funcion as a state at that time it was under Ottoman Rule so how could they have spread their propaganda to Britain?
Please read something from Misirkov,something from Gjorgjija Pulevski or even from Mr.Borza and you will see that the Macedonins were never greek
…Or Bulgarian (Vulgarian),Serbian or something else.Macedonians are simply Macedonians !!!
Yes, you are right. I did find out about William Ewart Gladstone but i couldn’t see the relation with macedonia. I think my point remains valid though. After all you haven’t denied it. You have been using that quote from mr gladstone as your signature and you used it when you retired from wiki when they found out you were trying to pass your propaganda.
Since you brought arrian up:
” There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is theirs cause from ours ! They will be fighting for pay— and not much of it at that; we on the contrary shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it. As for our foreign troops —Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes — they are the best and stoutest soldiers of Europe, and they will find as their opponents the slackest and softest of the tribes of Asia.”
Arrian - The Campaigns of Alexander. Alexander talking to the troops before the battle. Book 2-7 Penguin Classics. Page 112. Translation by Aubrey De Seliucourt.
(Quote copied from http://historyofmacedonia.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/ancient-sources-about-alexanders-army-greek-character/)
I guess i google enough…
So whats seems to be the problem there with Arrian.”There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service ” So the greeks were in the Persian Army also,there were greeks in the Macedonian Army too,because Greece was under the rule of Macedonia under that time.
Plus that you have only chosen one source - Arrian and you have chosen it from a greek web site(i have read the book),as for me i showed you more sources.
But let me teach you a bit of history.
Quintus Qurtius Rufus:
Patron, the Greek commander, speaks with Darius: “Your Majesty”, said Patron, “we few are all that remain of 50,000 Greeks. [p.112-13]
50,000 strong Greeks were with Darius fighting the Macedonians, while Alexander took only 7,000 Greeks next to his Macedonians which served as “hostages” and “were potential trouble makers”, (Green) which he got rid of only when he learned that the rebellion in Greece against the Macedonian occupation forces there was suppressed (Badian, Borza). The fact that 50,000 Greeks were fighting Alexander’s Macedonians shows clearly that their loyalty and their numerical superiority lies with Darius and his Persians, not with Alexander and his Macedonians. As Peter Green puts it: “if this was a Greek conquest where were the Greek troops?” Alexander’s conquest can not therefore be at all a Greek conquest, but simply a Macedonian conquest.
Strabo:
“The Thessalians in particular wore long robes, probably because they of all the Greeks lived in the most northerly and coldest region” [11.14.12].
North from Thessali is MAcedonia and Greeks who lived the northest were the Thessalians.
I offer you writen proof,and you give me nothing.Using greek propaganda wont let history say the truth.
I guess you dont google or read enough to have this historical argue with me,as all greeks dont because they only learn their propaganda material.
Macedonia To The Macedonians!!!
“There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service ”
So the greeks fought in the persian army too,but doesnt make the Persians greek,does it?- I dont think so,this is a poor peace of evidence.
I will show you more truthful history,cause i dont like propaganda.
Quintus Curtius Rufus:
“Alexander meanwhile dealt swiftly with the unrest in Greece - not only did the Athenians rejoice at Philip’s death, but the Aetolians, the Thebans, as well as Spartans and the Peloponnesians, were ready to throw off the Macedonian yoke. (Diod. 17.3.3-5) - and he marched south into Thessaly, demanding the loyalty of its people in the name of their common ancestors, Achilles (Justin 11.3.1-2; cf. Diod. 17.4.1). And with speed and diplomacy Alexander brought the Thebans and Athenians into submission (Diod. 17.4.4-6) [p.20]
“Alexander also referred to his father, Philip, conqueror of Athenians, and recalled to their minds the recent conquest of Boeotia and the annihilation of its best known city.” [p.41](Conqueror of Greece not somebody who unites)
Here is something about the armies you like so much:
50,000 strong Greeks were with Darius fighting the Macedonians, while Alexander took only 7,000 Greeks next to his Macedonians which served as “hostages” and “were potential trouble makers”, (Green) which he got rid of only when he learned that the rebellion in Greece against the Macedonian occupation forces there was suppressed (Badian, Borza). The fact that 50,000 Greeks were fighting Alexander’s Macedonians shows clearly that their loyalty and their numerical superiority lies with Darius and his Persians, not with Alexander and his Macedonians. As Peter Green puts it: “if this was a Greek conquest where were the Greek troops?” Alexander’s conquest can not therefore be at all a Greek conquest, but simply a Macedonian conquest.
And what about Strabo (ancient historian)
“The Thessalians in particular wore long robes, probably because they of all the Greeks lived in the most northerly and coldest region” [11.14.12].
So he says that the Thessalians were the Greeks who lived the northest from all Greeks,and as we all know MAcedonia is north from Greece.
I guess you google but you dont know your history very well.Propaganda material is not history.I have read many books and this is just something i can “pull out” and show to you.
Macedonia To The Macedonians !!!
Are you the same person who retired from wiki because nobody accepted his propaganda or not? You still haven’t denied it :-)
I didn’t come here to learn history from a random person i met on the internet and i find your post realy boring. There are history books and if i thought they would be interesting i would have read them already.
I can’t see what you are trying to prove though. At which point did you adopt the slavic language?
Even if you are right. What do you think you are going to gain from this? I’m sure you are well aware that there will be no change of borders without war, but have you ever thought how poor the region will be if we waste all our money fighting each other instead of making investments? And do you think that the majorities in both countries actualy want this to happen? The world is moving fast and we’re both small fish. Be creative, not destructive!
Retired?Why should i retire from wiki,im not telling you wiki quotes your telling me wiki quotes.You should be the one that should retire.
War?Who mencioned anything about war?I never said that the Macedonians are asking for war at this moment,i said that they should get their rights like everywhere else,they should get their cultural authonomy,and someday maybe even teritorial authonomy,because that is their land,but getting that should be done in a peaceful and civilezed way not by war.
When your greek propaganda will stop givind you disimformation,this will happen.
Macedonians have never done anything to greeks (except for Phillip II when he subdued the greeks).yesteday two MAcedonians were attacted near the Greek-Macedonian border because the had the MK simbol on their truck.
Two day ago a group of greeks attacted few macedonians in Larissa.
I ask you now is that fair,inocent people getting hurt.That is done all because of your propaganda.Nacionalism will get you nowhere my greek friend and neighbours.
You now as well as i do that the name issue is just an exuse for the Macedonian minority living there.They had lands once in there and they should be returned to them now.Thats the real problem not the name of my Country -Macedonia.
Macedoniansoldier, thank you for demostrating in public the reasons why greeks are worried. Talking about territorial autonomy already? THAT’s why we don’t like you using the name macedonia. As for the attacks on macedonians in greece, they are the sad result of fanaticism and they happen in both countries. I condemn them in both cases as most reasonable people would do.
I told you before and I’ll say it again: Be creative, don’t be destructive. All you care about is borders and control. All I care about is the well being of all people and the enviroment we live in. That’s why we cannot agree on something, not because we’re from different sides of the border. Hopefully we’ll solve this issue once and for all and you’ll join the EU and there will be no borders. But you need to get you true interests straight first. Wake up and see the big picture!
Macedonia will not get in Eu because of the word Greece loves so much “VETO”.Greece and its politicians should be ashamed,i have no territorial pretences,and im not for changing borders at the moment because that leads to wars and destructon,and killin inocent people.Im talking to ypu about giving the Macedonians that live in the Aegean part of Macedonia their cultural authonomy and their right which they dont have.If you were the cradle of democracy as greeks like to say than there cant be only two kinds of people living in greece (approved by law).There cant be only greeks and muslims living in Greece,you have a large Macedonian minority living in the Macedonian part.And giving them their right isnt territorial pretensions.We gave Albanians,Turks,Gypsies,Serbs and everyone who lives in here their rights their basic human rights.
Your country cant call its self democratic,firtsly because you dont even want to say the name Macedonia when you are writing to me,and i say the name of your country because i respect you as a human beeing who has the right to say that he is whatever he wants to be,you want to call your self greek do it i dont mind,you think you are a descendent of the ancient greeks do it but you cant have all the ancient culture to your self,many people lived in these territories!!!
Cultural authonomy means giving the Macedonian minority do dance and play their national dances without fear that they will be imprisoned,cultural authonomy means giving them to charish their cultural inheritage as we let everyone in our country do the same.
I respect your opinions because im democratic,and i dont hate other nations or people.
Why hasnt greece apologized to the exiled macedonians in 1948 when general Metaxas cilled and exiled over 500.000 Macedonians?That is what every civilez country should do if they call them selfs democratic.
Respect and all the best to you.
Look man, don’t start the whole minority thing. Macedonians in the aegean are called either greek, or tourists. You say you have no territorial pretences and then you go on to say “at the monent”. That’s why you got vetoed. Because you want to change the borders and we need stability. Not because we don’t like you. I think your politicians are stupid too. They managed to isolate your country quite well. Great job!
Anyway, what cultural autonomy are you talking about? Who’s stopping them from believing and saying what they want? Half of my customers and neighbours are immigrants and the schools are full of foreign children. You can hear them laughing and they don’t sound any different than greek children. When i was unemployed and went for an unemployment card i was the only greek person in the office. These people got the same help i did. So what exactly do you want more? What is this cultural autonomy you are talking about? Macedonia is not tibet and i’m definately not chinese!
What is this undefined right you want? Why don’t you become more specific? Is it about not calling you macedonian? That’s because you want to use this name to claim greek territory. You haven’t even got an army so you are trying to lie your way into greece. You and what american? Bush is almost out of the door. Bye bye macedona, hello fyrom :)
You are abviously confusing human rights with identity theft. One is a right, the other is a crime!
You can come here and dance and talk slavic all you want. You can knock yourself out.
I a have dutch grand grand father. Does this mean i have to call myself dutch even though me or my parents or even my grand parents have never even been to holland? Should I claim holland as part of greece? And draw maps of greece including holland. You live in fantasy land. Wake up. The world is moving and you’re sleeping!
One last thing. What reasonable person cares about who owned this land more that 2000 years ago? Do you know how many times it’s changes hands since alexander? Imagine what would happen if all those people wanted it back! Do you want an israel-palestine type situation? I think that’s your best case scenario. (except that you’re not as rich or influential as the jewish:)
Good like with your american friends, i’m sure they’ll be happy to help you for free. And they’ll give you a piece of the profits too! Yeah right.. I’m sorry but you’ll probably be working for macdonals soon.
McDonia to the americans!
OK man now you just beeing ignorant and rude and runing away from the discussion.I have relatives in Aegean Macedonia and they dont have any rights there.What do you think-why is the Rainbow party fighting for in Greece.
Greeks are just trying to be nationalist.you also said this:
“What reasonable person cares about who owned this land more that 2000 years ago? “- the answer would be both Greeks and Macedonians.Do you know how greeks took the territory of Aegean Macedonia 100 years ago?Ill tell you how by war,remeber the Balcan Wars(1913)?Thats when greece claimed that Aegean was their land,that it was their land 2000 years ago.See my point.
By cultural authonomy i mean giving the people,the minoriti in Greece the right to do everything the other greeks do.But its not like that because when someone will say that he is a macedonian,the greeks attack him.Remember what happend to the guy who ownes a church in Aegean Macedonia?Nikodim Carknas,they trew egs and stones at his house but not older people but kids,5-8 graders.And when he went to the school to tell the teachers what happend they told him to leave Greece once and for all because Greece was no place for him to live,even ,though he was borned there,hes parents,grandparents and so on were borned in there.
OHI DEMOKRATIA IN HELLAS man.Thats the moto of greek politicians.Who has the right to change someones name?Noone.What do greeks think they are.And man if you have someting dutch inside you that shows that greeks are not hellenic descendents,because half of the population there has mixed genes.
Macedonia To The Macedonians,respect my name!!!
I will like to talk only to people who really want to understand the Greek point of view, and only with honesty:
Greek macedonia is a place now that is habbited with 2,2 million greeks who consider themselves greek macedonians, more than everything. The current prime minister of Greece also feels Greek macedonian more than everything. And all these people have lived there for many years. What do you “macedonians” think, these an people feel about you, when you say I am the only macedonian?? What do you think the leader of Greece, Karamanlis felt when your politicians say “we are the only macedonians”?
Yes, it is true that right now in Greece there are about 2.500 people, feeilng like patriots of you “macedonians”. Yes, they exist. And of course they enjoy every political right as all the greek citizens. That’s why, the rainbow party is taking part of every time election. (And their politcians are not being shoot like in “macedonia”…)
But do you know really what you people really are? When you say we are “macedonians”, do you really mean that you have connection to the ancient macedonian greek tribe? Do you?? Because if you do, then this is a clear effort to steal from someone’s identity and culture. You have absolutely NOTHING to do with anything related to ancient macedonian greek tribe. And finally you have to admit it. If you do, then Greece and the greek people could ALLOW you to use “macedonia” as your name, with a clear prosonym in front. And I say ALLOW because the word “macedonia” identifies the nature of the Greek idenity.
You can be “macedonians”. But - I repeat - you have absolutely nothing to do with ANYTHING related to ancient macedonian greek tribe, and finally your today nationalistic politicians have to adlimt it. Like your ex MACEDONIAN PRESIDENT Kiro Gligorov did. You remember his public statement in his bibliography???
“We are SLAVOmacedonians, that came to the balkan region during the 6th century, and we have NO RELATION to the ancient macedonian greek tribe”. Do deny this statement??? Is that a lie? Your own macedonian president said this just some years ago, not me or any greek!
So why can you not stick on that? Why say totally CRAZY and PROVOCATIVE things like “we are the descedants of ancient macedonians and Alexander the Great”. This is not true and even your president admitted it! So, stop being provocative and accept your real identity. We will call you macedonians, as far as you will say the truth like your OWN EX PRESIDENT KIRO GLIGOROV DID!
Your today VMRO nationalistic politcians decided that they want to build a new national idenity for your people, that is a lie, and is based on someone else’s national idenity. Well, Greece and Greek macedonians will never allow this.
So, you macedonian people have two choices:
1) Live in peace with Greece and the greek people (who really feels hate for you right now…), get into NATO and the EU and be developed economically. You will do this by agreeing in a common accepted name with Greece.
2) Don’t agree with Greece, stay out of NATO or the EU, and be isolated. Don’t get any security from anyone. And let the albanians break your country and your own people in just a few years. You know very well this will happen soon.
Really, the choice is all yours.
Thanks Pavlos. You covered how i feel quite well. The only thing missing at the end is the role of the americans. I don’t think the “macedonians” would have got themselves in this mess without the backing of the americans. What they didn’t take into consideration is that the albanians have a very strong lobby in the states(I know, it sounds strange) and they’re working their way into “macedonia” just like they did with cosovo. If greece allows the name macedonia to be used, there’s absolutely no reasurance for the ways it could be used in the very unstable balcans. I think you are to busy looking at greece and you’re missing your real enemies and threats. And that the americans (and some europeans) are playing the “divide and conquer” game again.
Macedoniansoldier, I’m sorry but i quit with you. I don’t have the time or mood to talk about the same arguements that have already been said. They are based on lies and propaganda. Nobody gets abused in greece because he’s “macedonian”. Although I can’t say the same for someone who tries to spread propaganda and create incidents.
Here are some know propaganda techniques you used that i recognise from the CIA handbook(anyone can find it on the net):
1 Refusing to answer the difficult questions by
2 Generalising
3 Flooding known sites with propaganda(you failed with wiki)
4 Victimising yourself to attract sympathy
5 Demonising the opposition
6 Dissinformation
Try again ;)
To schizomorph:
My personal opinion my friend is that I really do not believe that the Albanians, either by the help of their lobby in the US or alone, could cause any harm to Greece, even if they want to.
Greece has nothing to fear if Albania increases, from 4 million to about 7 million (including Kosovo and Tetovo in their dominion). Greece is still too far in front, in terms of military strength, economic strenght, population and also… political strenght and importance if you like. And most importantly Greece has no albanian minority inside her dominion, unlike Serbia and “Macedonia”, but only immigrants. Anyway, no help from nobody could make the Albanians claim anything from Greece. No matter if they unite with Kosovo now, or Tetovo in the near future.
To MacedonianSoldier:
My friend, I would really like you to read my first comment above (18). We want to live in peace with you. We will also allow you to use any name you want, even if it is about our own name. But only if you admit what and who you really are. Like your own ex-president Kiro Gligorov did. I repeat his statement in his bibliography: “We are SLAVOmacedonians, that came to the balkan region during the 6th century, and we have NO RELATION to the ancient macedonian greek tribe”. Your own macedonian president said this! Not me or any Greek.
So if you people accept what you really are, then there will be peace and prosperity between your country and Greece.
But you were mentiong incidents about ancient Macedonian and Greek history in your previous comments?? You were saying how macedonians and greeks were fighting with persians?? Why? You have no relation neither with ancient macedonia nor with ancient Greece. You are Slav (macedonian slav if you like) , and you talk a slav language. Enough with the nationalistic behaviour of you people. Accept who you really are and there will be future in the relations with Greece, and your existance as a country as well. But stop the “ancient macedonia tale”. You have absolutely nothing to do with anything related to ancient macedonia. You are slavs (macedonian slavs if you like, I repeat it again…) either you like it or not. Like your own macedonian president publically stated a few years ago.
Well you both miss one single VERY important issue. We try to steal your history?
OK so let us assume it is your, if someone manages to steal it, then it is not yours anymore. The thing is, the ONLY WAY someone can steal history is with ARGUMENTS AND ARTIFACTS. So you have something to worry about only points out to a logical conclusion Macedonians CAN “STEAL” the history so we use force.
I am sorry schizomorph but in those 6 points I find Greece not Macedonia.
Pavlos, this is classical ultimatum from your mouth. ANYONE that shows me an ultimatum will find a closed door here. You have a problem you elaborate it and point out this simple thing….
WHAT DOES MACEDONIA HAVE TO DO TO BECOME “A GOOD NEIGHBOR”?
Try to answer the question accurately and not get out of subject. Remember not to violate human nor constitutional rights of any existing nation. If you can do this, I think even the gov of MK will agree.
If not, you probably will realize where the problem is.
Best regards Aleksandar
To Aleksandar:
Hi Aleksandar. It is very fortunate that at last, some “macedonian” agreed that he is really trying to steal someone’s history! I remind you your own words:
“if someone manages to steal it, then it is not yours anymore!!”
Thank’s for your honesty Aleksandar…
Well, I don’t want to hear anything else from you or from any of you people. You admitted it by yourslef what you people really believe and wish to achieve. To steal Greece’s identity and history.
There is only one problem with that my friend… Greece and the Greek people will never allow you to do that. They could allow you to live in peace with them and prosper… but not when you admit that you want to steal their own identity.
Greece has the power and the means to achieve what she wants. You people don’t… So it is again your choice:
1) Admit who you really are, like your own ex-president Kiro Gligorov did (I mentioned his exact statement in my comments above), find a compromise solution with Greece and keep existing with all your neighbours.
2) Don’t accept a compromise solution with Greece, and get destroyed by the albanians in your own country in a few years. Because Greece will NEVER allow you to join any international organisation when you admit that you want to capitalize her own history and national identity, like you just did in your comment above…
We - in Greece - don’t hate you. We are the only neighbours that don’t want an inch of your soil. (unlike the Albanians and the Bulgarians..). We trully want to live in peace with you. And we trully don’t have an interest causing you troubles. But we cannot do it, when you want to capitalize our own history and national identity.
We are both macedonians Aleksandar. Trully. But we have one difference: You are slavomacedonians… and we are the macedonians that come from the ancient greek macedonian tribe. That is our difference. Admit the reality at last, and stop provocating us by using symbols of the ancient macedonian greek tribe. You have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Alexander the Great or anything related to ancient macedonia!!! NOTHING!!! Your own macedonian president (Kiro Gligorov) admitted that publically a few years ago. It is time for you people to admit it too….
1) NO CAN DO, every person has a right to declare himself as they please by UN declarations of human rights
2) I think you misled believing that you are gods. LOL
3) You don’t know how to quote, same as your ancestors 2500 years. (must be some twisted gene)
Just a short lesson to a so called quoter.
“ONLY WAY someone can steal history is with ARGUMENTS AND ARTIFACTS. So you have something to worry about only points out to a logical conclusion Macedonians CAN “STEAL” the history so we use force.” IS EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT, if you have any twisting mind that reasons things differently by all means seek professional help.
Also your “Quote” proves that nothing written by your ppl. use as argument is valid, you simply can’t quote.
Our constitution is explicit, the people of R. Macedonia are Macedonians. You like it or not.
CONCLUSION: Well you actually like us to accept an ULTIMATUM. I am sorry but you are not in such position and I doubt you ever will be.
To Aleksandar:
You simply don’t want to accept the truth… I am sorry for you. And if we are or not in a position to ask what we want, you will realize it in a few months… you are not macedonians and this is the only truth.
Greece will get what it asks….. either you want it or not. You will change your name, or stop existing. We ARE in a position to make you do what WE want. Wait a few months to see this….. (I already see your VMRO president to claim in the near future “a smart change in our name will not affect our national idenity…). Just wait after your elections my bulgarian friend…
Well, you forget ONE IMPORTANT THING. Whatever the political parties accept the nation can vote out on Referendum and not even Greece can oppose that.
Courtesy of living in democracy.
I am sorry but your truth is not that shiny as your quotes are, you may even do a little research on it to acknowledge that.
If you call me by other declarations than the ones I determine results in the culture you have thus as a representative of your nation you are a bad example. If I felt like being a Bulgarian I could and I can declare as one. Not declaring myself as Bulgarian clearly points out to your discriminating and NAZI looks of the modern society.
To make it simple for you… I AM MACEDONIAN and there is nothing you can do about it.
To alexandar: Did you actualy read the post with the 6 points?(No19) The 6 poinits refer to the propaganda techniques MacedonianSoldier was using. Not to the propaganda fyrom is using. Although thinking about it again they are the same. Since macedoniansoldier seems to have dissapeared after that post - and i believe he’s a professional in communication technology and propaganda - you appeared. I wonder if the same person is using a different name when the first one was ‘burned’.
One more thing alexandar. With the logic you use in post 25, I can declare I’m from mars and i came here with my spaceship. The simple fact is that you definately have a personality crisis. ( you said ‘If I felt like being a Bulgarian I could and I can declare as one. Not declaring myself as Bulgarian clearly points out to your discriminating and NAZI looks of the modern society.’) You are obviously looking for something to ‘declare’ yourself. I don’t blame you, you are a very young nation and you have the right as individuals to seek your identity. But i believe you are being manipulated by forces you don’t quite understand. I think the americans have an agenda for the balkans. The albanians are the right hand and the skopians are the left. Let me say at this point that i don’t hate anyone for being who they are, I’m not racist and i hate racism.
The balkans should get a chance to grow peacefully and this should be done with local capital. We shouldn’t just sell our lands to the highest bidder. All I’m saying is that we have common threats to face in a globalised market/world. And we’re being blind enough to think that if we steal a bit from our neighbours we can save ourselves. WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER PEOPLE! I can’t make it any more clear than this! If we can’t agree on this, let’s just start a war and get it over with!
Human nature or animal nature? You decide!
LOL I think you better stop thinking instead of me. Don’t worry about my brain functionality it is perfect with 140+ IQ which is a world benchmark I don’t need any help with thinking.
-”Just wait after your elections my bulgarian friend…” from post No24
-”Let me say at this point that i don’t hate anyone for being who they are, I’m not racist and i hate racism.” from post No26
This 2 quotes are not inline with each other, when you clearly know that I DECLARE MYSELF AS MACEDONIAN and that I can’t vote for Bulgaria (I don’t wish to either). So YES you are all that, like it or not. I don’t tell YOU what you are it is you that does that.
“The balkans should get a chance to grow peacefully and this should be done with local capital. We shouldn’t just sell our lands to the highest bidder. All I’m saying is that we have common threats to face in a globalised market/world. And we’re being blind enough to think that if we steal a bit from our neighbours we can save ourselves. WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER PEOPLE! I can’t make it any more clear than this! If we can’t agree on this, let’s just start a war and get it over with!”
I think that Macedonia wants EXACTLY this. It is Greece that says we are a threat, makes embargo, beats Macedonians in presence of police (just for being Macedonian), DISCRIMINATES OUR NATION DECLARATION RIGHT, tries to inflict constitution changes, includes special visa regime for Macedonians, has a law that doesn’t allow a NON GREEK, by nationality, to claim HIS rightfully owned land back (denationalization right). I am sorry but that is not EVEN the least friendly attitude that I can imagine.
If we need to work together than MAKE IT SO, we are here we seek only what we deserve and is ours. Our RIGHT TO DECLARE AS WE LIKE and acknowledgments of the Macedonian minority in Greece. IF You think we seek too much, then YOU have to understand that we are not slaves and that this is 21 cet.
I am not the same one as MacedonianSolder. I think even my writing is different but you don’t have to believe in that.
About Globalization, I don’t agree with you. I like the globalization as it is the same idea Alexander had 2500 years ago. Only a hard nationalist will oppose this noble idea that is actually in need of big tolerance and understanding. We need to accept all people as equal, I as sorry to see that the “Cradle of Democracy and Philosophy” fails to find the capacity to accept this.
NOTE: Macedonians even after the VETO from Greece want in NATO and EU with 90+% from total population. That is the a good indicator to the acceptance of Macedonians to other cultures and ideas. EVERYBODY that has come here is able to see that, that is why we have big support.
So yes
-”Human nature or animal nature? You decide!” You decide when to let go of the Vetoes and Threats, we are ready that is what the whole world says too.
http://saveas.blog.com.mk/node/146921
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSXde5AiTtA
This is a mirror that MAYBE will make you think rationally, as your ancestors did.
Pavlos.
Everytime, I see an arguement between a Greek and a Macedonian. I see two things that a greek brings up.
1) They bring up Kiro Gligorov.
2) They identify themselves as Anicent Macedonians and classify THE REAL MACEDONIANS as Slavophones Macedonians.
I will know answer.
1) Kiro was a member of the Yugoslavia party, when he said this and obviously we know how close Greece and Serbia was. I could easily bring up Demosthenes and others but whats the point? You’ll babble into something else.
2) You have no proof, that you are a decendant of the Anicent Macedonians. If you looked are your DNA closely, scientists have shown that you are closely related to Ethiopians. Since when was Alexander The Great Ethiopian? I dunno. :\ Oh and a tip. Just last week, 70 top Slavic Scientists, confirmed that Slavs migrated North, instead of South! Macedonia is the most southern Slavic country
too.. hmm..
And Pavlos. My friend, please stop saying “We -in Greece- dont hate you” come on, lets be serious here. We have tried to have good neighbourly relations. But it will never work, we disagree on alot of things. We are two different types of people.
To Egejska:
I will start with the last one you said: Of course we are two different types of people. We are Greeks, and you are Slavs. That’s why we are in a superior position than you, we have always been, and we will always be.
About the “scientists” that you mention that claim we come from the “Ethiopian” people I will mention only one thing: A common croke that was put and paid by your goverment, made this “scientific research” 2 years ago.
You want to hear the result?? The whole international scientific community made a public statement some months later, in the International Organization of Biogenetists to claim that “the above research is not based on ANY scientifc artifacts and SCIENCE should not be used FALSELY just to serve political purposes”.
You people even are organizating fake “scienitific” researches to prove you are something you have NO RELATION AT ALL with. But we Greeks, are here to expose you. You are slavs, you have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with ANYTHING related to ancient Macedonia, and Slavs you will remain. We are Greeks as Alexander the Great was. And we are Macedonians as Alexander the Great was. And YOU are SLAVS of bulgarian origin as Alexander the Great was NOT.
We know the truth hearts you…. but the truth cannot change, no matter how hard you try. After the NATO summit in Bucharest, the whole world learned why Greece did not allow “Republic of Macedonia” to join… the whole world learned who the people of “Republic of Macedonia” really is…… that they are NOT macedonians… byt simply SLavs.
We in Greece will continue to expose you in the whole world, as the years will be passing. Your lie, with “macedonian identity” will not be believed by anyone internationally the moment we will finish. So until, the albanians take your soil, your houses and every other little thing of you…. we in Greece will be here to tell anyone who you really are.
Of course we are different Egejska. We have always been. And we will always be, even when you will become albanians and bulgarians again. The time is approaching for that anyway…
To moderators: PLS stop letting ultra nationalist to speculate and impose NAZI ideas as comments!!!!
“We have always been. And we will always be, even when you will become albanians and bulgarians again. The time is approaching for that anyway…” - since it is far more offending than SWEAR as it affects a nation, not just one person.
To Pavlos: You are the least reliable source to claim anything, if that research is FALSE, what are then your statements?
You can’t tell me what I am and SURELY you don’t know what the word Slav represents.
http://www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=24307&rub=56
This is an english version of the sum from the summit held in Russia.
http://www.organizmica.org/archive/504/pdsp.shtml
it will give you a picture of what does Slavic mean.
It is in context with the dr. Florin Curta researches that determine “NO MIGRATIONS ON THE BALKAN IN PERIOD FROM 500-700 AD”
THIS ARE NEW RESEARCHES so the global science world will need time to work on them. In any case it clearly supports Macedonian claims. So don’t jump higher than you can.
I know you have many evidence but NOTE that they don’t have this new findings implemented. They will surely change the flow of history, how and how much only time will tell. I don’t expect you to comment on this since you are not a reliable source to do so.
If you need a place to discriminate people, find some other place.
@Alexandar(P27)
1)Can you actualy read my friend? the two quotes you mentioned are from two different people. Why should they be in line with each other?
2) You don’t declare yourself whatever you are, you are born. If you declare yourself macadonian, than i will declare myself god. Will you fall on you knees and pray to me? And then you say your IQ is 140! Stop declaring yourself things and find who you realy are. You were probably born yugoslavian. There’s a start for you! I’m realy sorry, your country has problems with all it’s neighbours but you’re not going to solve them with this way of thinking. After all greece is ok, it’s you who have the problem.
3) About working together etc.: You skopjians are obviously being provocative. You have already printed the maps of your country including parts of greece. Also if you had bothered to read my initial posts and those in similar threads in global voices, you would have seen that i don’t say you’re not macedonians. You came to the region sometime in the 6th century and you mixed with the local macedonians. This does make you macedonians. If one of my parents was from france, I would be greek/french. After that it would be up to me and my parents to decide if I will speak french or greek or both. Since you speak a south slavic language(similar to bulgarian), you have chosen to be more slavs than macedonians. After all, how can you be macedonians when you don’t know the language, the mytholgy and you only know a limited part of the history(which by the way you remembered less than a century ago!). I’m truly sorry for the mess you’re in but it’s not my fault.
4)About globalisation: It’s not whether you like it or not, it’s happening as we speak. The problem is how you deal with it. It’s a competitive world out there. Do you think you can survive?
5) The links were a waste of time. You need to be a fanatic nationalist to watch that video. It makes me sick.
@egejska:’2) You have no proof, that you are a decendant of the Anicent Macedonians. If you looked are your DNA closely, scientists have shown that you are closely related to Ethiopians. Since when was Alexander The Great Ethiopian? I dunno. :\ Oh and a tip. Just last week, 70 top Slavic Scientists, confirmed that Slavs migrated North, instead of South! Macedonia is the most southern Slavic country
too.. hmm..’ Any country can pay 70 scientists to falsify evidence and draw wrong conclusions. Have any international scientists accepted their research? As for the DNA: there are no pure breed people in the world, except in cases of extreme isolation but definately not in europe! We are not realy two different types of people, we just speak different languages and are under different governments. I’m sure we have much more in common than you think!
@alexandar(P30) That is called junk science and it is another technique for propaganda. Here’s a link for you:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Propaganda_techniques
It lists most of the well known techniques used for propaganda. Try avoiding them because any person familiar with communication science can expose you. If you speak truly without the propaganda, you have my full attantion.
I think you crossed the line there, beside you are THE LEAST eligible person to determine what is junk and what is not as you yourself is a frustrated junk that thinks IS A GOD.
Yes you CAN declare you are a god and I will be the first to shoot you in order to determine your claim true or false. It will be my honor.
What you demonstrate as a country and individually is FORCE, BRUTAL FORCE and that is what all the people see. You can’t tell me who I am, nor you can make me something else. PUT THAT IN YOUR STUBBORN HEAD.
I know who I am, the problem is you can’t accept that, too bad. Tell me when did your great grand father move to Thessaloniki? 100 years ago, that makes you a Macedonian? That is your problem FRUSTRATION. It took 3 major powers and 80 years in total to patch Greek to look like a nation. After that it takes them 120 years to to get you on your lazy feet, on firm ground but with no major success. I am sorry but as nation you hardly stand up to the deeds of your ancestors.
It was a Russian source I provided to you, apparently you can’t read or doesn’t suit you. If that is propaganda for you, then you may tell me what is not, Greek sources?
@alexandar: I will quote myself this time: ‘You came to the region sometime in the 6th century and you mixed with the local macedonians. This does make you macedonians.’
Which part did you not understand and why are you attacking me? I have never even said i’m macedonian because i’m not. I’m greek. Some greeks are macedonian but not me. My roots are from asia minor. Shoot me? Is tihis where you’re getting at? You nationalist nutter!
And yes, I can’t read russian. Try linking and english language site! The other link is obviously macedonian propaganda and unbased evidence. why should i take it seriously? Anyone can put up a site and say whatever they want.
‘I am sorry but as nation you hardly stand up to the deeds of your ancestors.’ I’ll have to agree on that. The ancient greeks were amazing but 2500 years later and after 400 years under the ottoman empire we have forgotten parts of our culture. But in the end of the day how many ancient civilisations do you think have survived until today?
I feel compassion for fyrom and i hope your government can make the right decisions so that you can develop.
No I will tell you a name now Florin Curta. He says that there were no migrations (not even small, judging by archeological evidence) in the period from 500-700 AD which includes 6th cent as well. He even got a prize for that research by US.
So is this propaganda, or lack of your history update?
I am sorry but this is not how a nationalists speaks, you record yourself for that.
This ARCHEOLOGICAL research is now supported by many other findings and concluded that ACTUALLY this is true. So now all Slav nations AND other science world stick to the FACT (not theory as before) that Slaves migrated north (but not 6 cent, much earlier).
That would explain many things, among which the ancient civilization they belong to.
You may not like it, but this is pure science (not invented by me)
Ok, so what are you suggesting then? Where did you come from? And if you truly are macedonian, then when exactly did you abopt the slavic language? Because I know macedonians that still speak the greek language, still call themselves greek and still live in greece!
It seems to me that you chose a different path somewhere in history and now that you are looking for a new identity, you are trying to bring out your macedonian side rather than the slavic. But i think it’s too late, you have forgoten your original language(greek) and you don’t even know what the holy symbols of macedonia like the star of vergina mean.
It’s very simple, if you want to be called ‘macedonian’, you’ll have to become greek again. You can apply for citizenship if you want and we’ll teach you the language and history happily.
If you want to be ’slavomacedonians’, it’s still fine with greece. In fact, this is what we have been suggesting all along in the official talks.
But you can’t be ‘macedonians’ because this would be unfair to the macedonians that have kept their language and greek identity(some even still believe in the dodecatheon).
I truly don’t care about what you call yourselves on a personal level. That’s the human right of self declaration. But calling your country Macedonia’ is a premeditated - propagandistic in nature - inaccuracy that threatens greece.
And you know what? I don’t even care about greece.
All I care about is that I don’t have to live in war and hate my neighbours over a name and a pointless arguement about who ‘owns’ alexander the great.
The ones who will gain from this will be the G8 who will ‘invest in rebuilding the infrastructure’ and we’ll all be their employees.
Wake up!
We have been focusing on the nationalistic or right wing side of thing but we have completely missed the ‘left’ side of the issue. We are looking at the empty wold ‘nation’ and we miss the social side of it.
What will realy help the average greek and skopian person or family live a happier life? That’s the real aim of people [happiness] isn’t it? And to be able to enjoy life you need personal time and less work. This means we need to have more access to goods for less labour. Talking about wars or thing that might lead to wars makes governments spend more on weapons and less for health and education.
What do you realy want?
I have followed many bloga and I am still unable to understand what the reason for the objection of the slav-macedonian side to a composite name is:
-Some bring up ancient history with Alexander and so on. This is a) irrelevant and b) an issue you are goingto lose anyway(there is no question that Alexander’s macedonians were greeks -just ask jews whom they revolted against
in Hanuka, greeks or macedonians)
-Some bring up the right to self-determination. The whole point though is that there are over 2 million greek macedonians, including the prime minister, who are no less macedonian, call themselves macedonian and want to
have nothing to do ethnically with slav macedonians. So
effectively the slav macedonian side is denying
their right to identify themselves as macedonian
-Some bring up old greviances, such as the Balkan wars.
The greek side also brings up a covert war with what they call Bulgarian comitadju forcibly trying to slavisize the greek macedonians before the balkan wars.
This is irredentist and is also bound to lose. By the same token greece would not accept asia minor or istanbul as a part of Turkey.
-Others bring up a nonexistent minority issue(by election results -and at any rate if in an eu country anyone feels mistreated, its HIS job to complain, not some third country’s) and bogus claims of harassment of slav macedonian s in Greece. In fact there is a famous football player from Vardar Skopje and I think Bitola before that who has settled in Greece for over 20 years now and is widely respected by everybody. On the contrary there are credible reports of harassment by slav-macedonian officials of greek drivers crossing who reply ‘FYROM’ when asked if they know what country they just entered.
Hello Hans,
I understand that your name is Hans ?
Is this correct ?
If yes, I would like to know how would you if a group of people decided to call you Eleonora or Dalton…. Perhaps this may explain the matter, instead of lots and lots of empty misleading arguments. Don’t get me wrong, just think of it and you will understand why …..
@hans:
Man this is one of the most reasonable ways of putting it. Simple and reasonable. And it is nice to hear it from someone not greek.
@yanni k:
Yanni, please don’t oversimplify a complicated issue that affects millions of people. I respect your side of this but you’ll have to respect mine too. I accept your macedonian roots, but you are also of slavic origin(I’m guessing). That makes you a slavomacedonian. What’s wrong with that? Is it a shame to be slav?
My guess is that the problem with the term Slavomacedonia is internal in fyrom. It is because of the relatively large albanian population who are not slavomacedonian. If fyrom valled itself slavomacedonia, the albanian population would have one more reason to want to be seperated and fyrom risks loosing part of it’s territory. (second cosovo?)
I don’t believe in coincidences. I’m sure there is a masterplan at work for maximising the use of the breaking up of yugoslavia. I’m sure think tanks somewhere(I wonder where?;) has an agenda for the balkans. Quite possibly many think tanks.
I blame the neo-conservative disaster capitalists on one hand and the russian businessmen/mafia/government complex on the other for what’s happening. I think the people of both fyrom and greek public (and politicians)are purpusfully being manipulated. And I also think that when they shape the balkans the way they want it, they’l build many pipelines, military bases and missile defence systems to protect them.
The middle east is the source but there are dangers in transporting oil by sea - both environmental and strategic - and the balkans are on the way to europe(one large market) the same way afganistan is on the way to asia(another large market). The masterplan is to secure the source with strong military presence and also secure the delivery of the goods(oil) to the market. Crude oil is on 132 dollard a barrel as we speak I bet this will sound cheap in a month’s time :(
Who benefits from this? NOT the greeks public, NOT the skopjian public and actually, not even the american public!
If you like to overcomplicated the issue for no evident reason, it’s up to you…. By the way I noticed that my question was not answered, so please allow me to repeat the question if you don’t mind:
I would like to know how would you feel (and/or react) if a group of people decided to call you Eleonora or Dalton….instead of your real name ???
Most likely, if you don’t wish to answer there must be a ”hidden agenda” in your mind, …. in such case yourself alone are making transparency and the truth of the matter to be doubted… isn’ it ?
That question was for hans first of all. But i don’t mind aswering it. My name is giorgos. When I lived abroad, people called me george. I realy didn’t mind. You can call me eleonora if that pleases your fantasy:) But the probelm is not what people call you. It is that you are being unfair to greek macedonians who also use that name. That’s why we’re asking you to call yourselves(at least on an official intrnational level) slavomacedonia.
In fact the problem isn’t even the name. The problem is that you are being provocative by printing maps of the ‘great macedonia’ and this way you are making claims on greek (and bulgarian) land. Thus, we don’t have ‘friendly neighbour’ relations.
Why don’t you like the name slavomacedonia?
Because the relation of Slavs and Macedonia is not existing. Why ? Evidently historical facts have records of Greek Macedonia few centuries BC. On the contrary, for the Slavs few centuries AD. You also mentioned Bulgaria, in this case the same applies. Why are you trying to distort the truth ? I have full respect for human rights, irrespective of color or race or culture, but the fact that the origin of Macedonia is not related to slavs, is irrelevant to human rights.
@ Yianni K:
I didn’t quite understand your answer. Could you rephrase it? Because from what I understood, you just denied being macedonian right? (Since you just said that the origin of macedonia is not related to slavs).
By the way, I think you’ve completely missed the part about the common threats we face. How come you are not interested in something so important? Don’t you have worries for the future of you country other then the name? Or do you think that once you join the EU and NATO everything will be rosy?
To schizomorph
From Yianni
(1st repeat) Because the relation of Slavs and Macedonia is not existing….This means Macedonia ”always was” and ‘’still is” Greek. (2nd repeat) Evidently historical facts have records of Greek Macedonia few centuries BC ….This means there are no records of Slavs in Macedonia’s ancient history. Similarly, as far as this issue is concerned it also means that Slavs did not even exist in ancient times BC, which substantiates that all claims of Slavs over Macedonia are based on distorted, misleading and untrue historical facts due to incentives ”on the dark side”. (3rd repeat) On the contrary, the Slavs few centuries AD……Within the same issue, this means that Slavs ”appeared” centuries after Christ and therefore any claims that Macedonians are Slavs are obviously not true. (4th) With regards to Bulgaria … the meaning is self explanatory. Hope this will be clear enough for your good self. Regarding your comments in the second paragraphs: this is my response: …if I missed the point or if I was not interested, or if I did not have worries about the future of my country (i.e. GREECE the cradle of Western civilization) it is very obvious that I wouldn’t had been writing to you now. Referring to your comments about the EU and NATO, I can only say that this is another issue. By the way Sir, what’s your Nationality and your Ethnicity ? Hope you don’t mind me asking.
No, I don’t mind at all my friend. I’m am greek from asia minor. Father from constantinople and mother from Smirni. (modern day Istambul and Ismir).
By the way, I’m not trying to distort the truth.I think it is distorted enough as it is. I’m trying to find the hidden truths behind this issue. From a criminological point of view, I’m trying to see who gaining from this because most likely someone is. And i don’t think it is the greeks or the skopjians.
When two people have the same name, it is usual to disambiguate them by using some extra information, like middle initial or father’s name. This is exactly the case here. Two different people calling themselves macedonian, so just
add some extra information to make sure what one is talking about.
I have great respect for your response, and thank you for it. Consider me your friend and let me know if you ever need anything from China. I am Greek but that’s where I live. Nase Kala - Yiannis
Wow, I keep meeting greeks who live in china somehow. I am interested in some things from china but we shouldn’t talk business here. Search my name on youtube and talk to me through there. Nice to meet you man.
@Hans: I find you reasonable as always man. The world needs more people like you :)
Thank you Hans, for your nice word.
I am sorry, but we call ourselves MACEDONIANS, you call yourself Greek- Macedonians. That looks like a distinction to me. Besides changing a name of a region will be a better choice than asking a neighbor country to change its name.
Also, I am not sure how proficient you (all of you) are to CLAIM that THERE IS NO EVIDENCE of connection?
(I don’t have time for extensive answer, but this covers most of it)
Loser :p
To Aleksandar:
From Yianni K
Thank you for your comments. Assuming your proficiency qualifies, I will be most grateful if you could kindly tell me which country is also known and accepted internationally as the ”cradle” of European civilization. Perhaps this will make the truth to prevail as far as ”ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ” is concerned.
Aleksandar,
no, as a matter of fact greek-Macedonians never call themselves greek-macedonian, because in their eyes the “greek” is completely redundant(they believe, just like you that there is no other kind of Macedonian). Perhaps names may not have been that important, but in this case you have killed any chance of greeks disambiguating themselves(which again would have been a huge favor to start with) when you start talking about “macedonian minorities” and so on. If you get the name with no qualifications, then greek macedonians will have to explain to the world that they are macedonian, but not related to “macedonia” and not part of any “macedonian minority”.
Try to understand that!
So the chance for this to happen is zero and I think
a fair compromise would be to both disambiguate yourselves.
To Aleksandar:
To give an adress with the “scientific findings” of two common crokes (Aristotel Tentov PhD (!), this is guy is not even reckognied as a university teacher internationaly) is totally exposing your ignorance. This guy was from your country, and WHATEVER HE SAYS is a total nonsense. To claim that there were some kind of macedonian language that was different than ancient greek is a total anekdote!
No real historian and scientit could consider seriously these claims, and really people can only laugh with them. Especially, when these claims come from “macedonian processors” (which their efforts to “rape” history is known internationally so far), noone can take them seriously.
No matter how you people try to change history cannot be changed. You are slavs, YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with ancient macedonia. Either you want it or not..
We are the only macedonians, right descedants of Alexander the Great. You are slavs, talking a bulgarian-serb mix language. ACCEPT YOUR IDENTITY at last!
Because if you don’t, Albania will break your fake country soon, and we in Greece will be watching them, raping your wifes and burning your houses from our homes, eating pop corn!
The choice is yours…
Aleksander,
first greek macedonians do NOT call themselves greek macedonian, because in their view macedonian is a subset of greek(i.e. they do not consider you macedonian at all).
If there was ever a chance for the greek Macedonians doing
what you wish, I’m sorry to say that it’s your side that killed that possibility when you started talking about “macedonian minority”. Obviously greek macedonians cannot have to explain
that they are macedonian, but not part of a macedonian minority and not related to “Macedonia”. Try to explain that to a third party.
In their view they have been in the region longer than anyone else and if anyone deserves the name, it’s them.
However, the composite name offer by greece is a very reasonable one: both sides have to show good will -and, believe me, it will be very painful to the greek macedonians
to call you anything-macedonian- and make compromises.
I think this is fair and at any rate, there is no alternative.
If you believe that you will get a better deal by refusing a reasonable compromise and keep insulting the other side,
then all I can say is good luck. Every step you take
in this direction takes you further from a solution, not closer.
@Hans: I don’t care how Greek- Macedonians see us. It is not my problem they are ignorant nationalists. I call them Greek- Macedonians because they say “MACEDONIANS ARE GREEK” so I have EVERY RIGHT to call them Greek-Macedonians. Also it is better to provide distinction about what I am talking about. If they see Macedonia as superior to Greece, MAYBE it is time to change your country name too.
@Pavlos: Every scientist is accredited by his degree, I am sorry to see someone that doesn’t appreciate somebody’s work. As for the approval of the work from the scientific society…..
http://www.runitsa.ru/publikation/chudinov/macedon.php
this is a review in context of the Russian INTERNATIONAL gathering regarding pre Slavic literacy. Where this 2 professors YOU “SPIT” ON were HONORABLE GUESTS!!!!
To explain that is a link from the Russian institute for ancient Slavic and ancient Asian civilizations.
This is the first step, I know you will say “They are all Slavs” but HEY who should be the first to approve a research like this? Not to mention that Russian scientist are WORLD CLASS!
GENERAL: If Greece wants to make a distinction between R. Macedonia and Greek REGION Macedonia. I think it is far more easier to change its own region name than to mess with other nation constitution and human rights.
If you say to me on this, Greeks have right to claim to be simply Macedonians I will reply: “SO DO WE”
To Aleksandar:
From Yianni K
Regrettably, by not answering my question you have substantiated once more that your views are persistently based on ”monolog” instead of a ”dialog”. This explains that you are very well aware an answer to my question will undeniably prove that ”ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ” is Greek… Please, why don’t you try to be objective and accept the truth. We have nothing against Slavs, but distorting the truth is unethical.
hans where are ou from if i may ask?
You seem to support greece.no offence but it seems like that.
We the people of the Republic of Macedonia call our selfes Macedonians,that is our identity,we cannot call our slfes anything else because that is how our great great ancestors called themselfes.”greek macedonians” are greeks brought to Aegean(now greek) macedonia in 1948 when more then 300.000 of our Macedonians were exiled from the Aegean part of Macedonia,our grandfathers,grandamothers which are still alive and talk aout that horible experience.Now i ask you why would greece have the right to call its province Macedonia (which they renamed it in 1989 from Northern Greece) and the Republic of Macedonia has to call its self with another name.As much as i know greeks are not the true descendent from ancient greeks but noone denies them that (this i gentically proven by a spanish gentical organisation).
Best regards Macedonian Soldier
Did you say ”Greeks are not the true descendants from ancient Greeks” ??? if so ….please clarify who are ?
@Yianni
“I will be most grateful if you could kindly tell me which country is also known and accepted internationally as the ”cradle” of European civilization.”
“Did you say ”Greeks are not the true descendants from ancient Greeks” ??? if so ….please clarify who are ?”
BTW I did answer it, seems the moderators deleted the post. Anyway this writing of yours has no logical connection.
What has the cradle of Democracy (2500 years ago, that is no longer even miserable democracy) has to do with Macedonians being Greeks??????
I am sorry but your fuzzy logic is way before this time.
Did you say ”Greeks are not the true descendants from ancient Greeks” - AND YOU CLAIM THEY ARE????? Can you prove this?
Aleksander, MacedonianSoldier:
Actually I am German if this is relevant to you.
Your position is the most moderate one I have seen from your side.The point is this:
You have two different people calling themselves by the same name. You are suggesting one(one-sided) solution:
Greek Macedonians disambiguating themselves by using “greek”. Now, you realize that you are asking them to do EXACTLY what you accuse Greece of doing, i.e. change your identity: If adding a word like “north”,”slav”,”non-greek” or whatever changes your identity, the same holds for greek macedonians. They are no more and no less nationalistic than you are, they think they are the real macedonians and so do you. [The stuff about the province never being called Macedonia before 1989 is simply wrong. I have seen school maps that date back to at least 1960, so I do not know where you get this info from. There are even songs about Macedonian(meaning greek Macedonian) gastarbeiter in germany who dream of returning to Greece.]
So, although the chances for this happening (i.e. greek macedonians saying “ok, you call yourselves macedonian and we will disambiguate as greek macedonians”) were very slim to start with, you realize this would have been a (big) favour that would depend entirely on greek macedonian goodwill: After all they would agree to your demand to change their identity.
So, if there were any chance of that ever happening,
bringing up things like Macedonian minority, questioning
their roots(although mixing is undeniable for every population, it is extremely hard to explain how the greek language has survived if modern greeks are unrelated to ancient ones. One could go on and say modern turks are unrelated to the original ones, because of the devshirme, but this is irrelevant), printing irredentist maps and so on
to begin with, I think this chance is lost.
What I do not see is a strategy for getting out of the current mess. Throwing insults at each other will
not achieve a solution, it will merely make things worse. This only benefits nationalists who do not really want a solution and just want to find someone to demonize to unite the country(has happened with Hitler before and others).
What I think is undisputable is that ancient macedonians were greek, but I think you have also been in the region
for 1000 years, so you also have a right to be called Macedonian. It’s just that this is not exclusive.
I understand this is p