I do not think we would be discussing the plight of Hu Jia had America left China in darkness. Now, you are in the light for everyone to see. People will judge what they see. Injustice, no mater where it raises its ugly head must be confronted. It is not America’s responsibility to directly confront injustice in China. It is, as so many have stated here, the responsibility of the Chinese people to do this. What these comments demonstrate is that the Chinese people have the support of the West. Is that so bad?

Doesn’t he know these Christian sects were banned by the Chinese government because they were killing people in order to retain and compete for membership?

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/202-three-grades-of-servants

These “cult of Christianity”, thou in name are Christian, do not even believe in the Bible. For example The Eastern Light believes Christ has returned to Earth – in the form of a invisible Chinese woman. The Three Grade’s Leader, Xu Shuangfu, actually named himself as the Messiah reborn.

I can understand why politicians in Washington DC with political agenda would forsaken Christ and worship invisibal female Jesus, but Hu Ja should know better.

How can I respect you when you say I am talking bullshit? This does not make for a good debate does it?

Anyway, how can I respect people that do this?

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7982410976871193492&q=dispatches+tibet&total=5&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

It seems you aren’t following the debate closely, it was Jotman who first regarded my arguments as a “game”, and I was responding to his accusations.

I already mentioned the political reform in my comment, it’s not a “sooner or later” thing, it’s on the way.

My problem with you guys is that you, espcially Frank, tend to simply dismiss any opposing points by saying “you are brain-washed by the CCP” blah blah.

You tend to be so arrogant, that you consider yourselves always correct, and people who disagree with you must be a slave of CCP. You have no respect for Chinese people.

I have brought up many points on this matter in my previous posts, yet I don’t see any meaningful response from you, only this very bullshit filled with arrogance and nothing else. This doesn’t make a good debate.

You can always look at China, but if you want the Chinese people to care about you, you have to respect them first.

It seems you both have fallen into the defensive here. Assuming that anyone who makes comment on the situation in China is playing games, is ignorant or has a low IQ does nothing to move this debate forward.
I am not playing games here. Nor are the people in London or Paris who choose to demonstrate. If you want final words on this matter, I suggest you concede that China is going to have to face reform soooner or later. You are right that its up to the Chinese people to do this, but China is not alone any more. The eyes of the world are on you now.

If the westerners here are truly bearing a good intention, hoping for China to become better, you will know that it’s the Chinese people who are the major force in fighting for this target. You can easily blame China on the internet, or call Chinese people idiots, or slaves of the CCP, whatever, it will do nothing other than making Chinese people more supportive of their government, which I guess it’s not a good news to you whatever your intention is.

The west has been taking a radically wrong approach recently in dealing with China, and the result is that Chinese people do not trust the west any more (and hatred is growing), especially in the matter of its political systems reform. The influence and attractiveness of the west to Chinese people in 1989 has long gone, and is unlikely to come back.

I have analyzed the problems of this approach in my earlier comments, and proposed ways for western NGO’s to improve their image in China, but you consider it a “game”. But the fact is, it’s you who are playing a game of bashing China and demanding China to do this and that here, and it’s a meaningless game because the CCP won’t give a shit about what you think.

However unjust the Chinese laws may seem to you, however miserable Chinese people are according to your imaginations, China’s future path is decided by its people. If this means sufferings for the rest of the world, let it be.

As to Hu Jia, for reasons including (but not limited to) what I have mentioned above, he doesn’t have the sympathy from Chinese people, and this can easily be seen from their discussions on this matter all over the globe. But it seems you would rather bash China and call its people slaves of CCP than communicating with them and find out why this is the case, that’s fine, you can continue your “work” here, and it will most definitely be fruitless.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

If China’s laws are unjust, there will be plenty of complaints by the people which may culminate into demonstrations (if the government ignored calls for reform). There may be lawsuits against the government. Let the people in China decide how to fight against unjust laws. The people of Hong Kong are well educated and have practised English laws for decades. Do not always assume that the Chinese people are as ignorant and imbecile as they were during the Cultural Revolution. This is an instance of westerners’ “preconceived bias” which I mentioned earlier.

Individual liberty is as important as social stability. However, I will not allow an individual the liberty to shout “Fire!” “Fire!” in a crowded cinema.

“.. If the laws are not respected, then sooner or later there will be chaos in the nation.”

The law must be challenged if it is unjust. Take Nelson Mandela, or Gandhi as examples of law breakers and you will see what I mean.
No one wants China to fall into chaos. It is in no one’s interests.