Update: On Thursday morning, Hu Jia was sentenced to 3.5 years in prison.
Hu Jia goes back on ‘trial' in a few hours where it is expected he will be handed down a sentence of up to five years in prison based on two interviews given and six unspecified blog posts most of which written during the more than one year he spent under house arrest.
Charging Hu with state subversion is proving as difficult for the legal process as it is for Chinese premier Wen Jiabao; when asked directly last month, during one of the most public appearances Wen gives each year, about Hu Jia's situation, the response Wen gave sounded to many like a denial that any ‘dissidents' had even been arrested.
Playing Captain Kangaroo may work in Zhongnanhai, but the reality that Hu and Zeng and their supporters have chosen to live in goes more like a Kanye West song. When Hu was first kidnapped around this time two years ago, Zeng Jinyan started a blog on which she documented the bureaucratic games she saw being played as she ran around Beijing trying unsuccessfully to find out what had happened to her husband, who was dropped off miles from home and with no notice over a month later.
When Zeng herself soon became subject to constant surveillance, she slammed on the brakes and started getting in their face.
Placing Hu under ongoing house arrest in 2006 effectively put an end to the environmental protection and AIDS awareness work for which he had already become quite well-known, and so trapped at home with little more than an internet connection, he not only created a whole new approach to activism, which some are calling Tiananmen 2.0, he switched gears to become a social worker of sorts, enabled by technology to keep constant track of a whole range of cases, and where possible, enabling others [zh] to do the same.
In 2007, Zeng Jinyan was chosen by TIME Magazine as one of the most influential people in the world.
This will no doubt go down as a landmark moment in Chinese history, but to this day anyone looking to China's largest search engine for more information needs to be prepared for disappointment. In the China of today, though, someone like Hu Jia just doesn't quietly disappear, and when state agents abducted him again last December, near-blind family friend Zheng Mingfang went straight to the streets and did what she could, walking up to strangers and explaining Hu's situation, collecting signatures for a petition calling for his release. Early last month, however, Zheng too was arrested.
On Facebook, there are Hu Jia support groups. There's a cause.
Hu Jia and Zeng Jinyan spent months filming their would-be captors for a documentary, Prisoners in Freedom City. After Hu was abducted a second time in December last year and not quickly released, someone got hold of a copy and put it online, and not just in one place, but several.
Following Hu Jia's arrest late last December, when it came to appear that his and Zeng Jinyan's newborn baby's health was at risk, enough momentum grew out of scattered online chatter that a group of netizens tried to force their way up to Zeng's door to deliver milk powder. When that proved unsuccessful, someone thought it through, and got it right. And still others went on to try.
Hu Jia kept it simple; in preparing posts for his blog, he did interviews over Skype, then sometimes sent them out over e-mail as .mp3 attachments. Clearly there were things he could have done better, but shortly after his arrest we saw the formation of a Netizen Party, with clearly stated intention to stick to using the highly encrypted services offered by Gmail and Skype.
One of the first things the authorities did in December last year when Hu was taken away and Zeng placed under house arrest, where she remains today, was to cut off her internet connection and confiscate her phones. Despite this, Zeng's blog kept on getting updated. And supporters kept translating it.
The second she got her cellphone back, Zeng started sending out photos. When Hu had his first day in court, we saw drive-by vlogging. Zeng's even managed to release a podcast.
Wen Jiabao almost seems justified in denying that any activists or netizens have or are being detained, given all the networks of bloggers out there so equally resolved not to accept it. If the bogus charges against Hu do somehow end up being dropped today, we only have more of ingenuity in blogging to look forward to. If they don't, and Zeng and her daughter remain captive to their squadron of nosepickers, didn't China finally launch 3G networks this week? It won't be long before we'll see a House Arrested Beijing channel on Qik.com.
Speaking of which, a post this week on Zeng Jinyan's blog says that Hu's trial at 9:30 a.m. on April 3 in courtroom 23 at Beijing #1 People's Intermediate Court will be open proceedings, and Zeng intends to be there.
Here's a poem from Hu-Zeng friend Teng Biao, written in prison after he himself was kidnapped for two days early last month and translated now by Under the Jacaranda Tree blogger C.A. Yeung, ‘To my wife, from jail‘:
Presently as I confront prison walls,
Now I write this poem for you, my Love, my Lady, my Wife.
Even tonight, the stars glitter in the cold sky of apparent isolation.
Glowworms yet appear and disappear among the shrubs.Please explain to our child why I did not have a chance
to bid her farewell. I was compelled to embark on a long journey away from home.
And so, everyday before our daughter goes to bed,
And when she awakes in the morning,
I will entrust to you, my Lady, my Love, my Wife:
I entrust to you, my warm kisses on our daughter’s cheeks.Please let our child touch the herbs beneath the stockade.
In the morning on a beautiful sunlit day,
If she notices the dew on the leaves,
She will experience my deep love for her.Please play the Fisherman’s Song every time you water the cloves.
I should be able to hear the song, my love.
Please take good care of our silent but happy goldfish.
Hidden in their silence are memories of my glamourous and turbulent youth.I tread a rugged road,
But let me reassure you: I have never stopped singing, my Love.
The leaves of the roadside willow tree have gradually changed colour.
Some noises of melting snow approach from afar.Noises are engulfed in silence. This is just a very simple night.
When you think of me, please do not sigh, my Love.
The torrents of my agonies have merged with the torrents of my happiness.
Both rivers now run through my mortal corpse.Before the drizzle halts,
I would have returned to your side, my Lady.
I cannot dry your tears while I am drenched in rain;
I can do so only with a redeemed soul after these times of testing.
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sentenced to 3 years and half jail time.
[...] Hu Jia to be sentenced today - Global Voices [...]
[...] se han traducido los últimos posts de su mujer Zeng Jinyan. Y desde sitios como Global Voices, se pide su liberación y se recopilan voces de [...]
I want the IOC to tell us: why is Hu Jia in prison because of the Olympics?
The international community must speak out about this, this represents complete corruption on the part of the Chinese government, and the fact that many governments and news media aren’t even reporting the details of this sickens me.
I couldn’t agree with you more, Leslie. All the more reason for those concerned to let their local representatives and media know how they feel. Especially if the recent anti-gay crackdown in Beijing and Shanghai does turn out to be in preparation for the Olympics.
I just completed a Master’s Thesis on the impact of blogging on regime change in China, learning the impact and details of what the Chinese are doing currently horrifies me. The really sad thing is that if I were to write the same document in China I too would be imprisoned. It is wicked, it is corrupt, and the global community should speak out.
What was he charged with speaking out on a blog? Next they will shutdown this blog and others—the people do need to speah out!
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Please send this site to everyone you know and blog it everywhere!
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BREAKING NEWS SEE CURRENT UPDATE OF FEDERAL CASE:
USA DRAFT MCCASKILL CASE
Click on each item below to see all attachments:
Plaintiff’s emergency motion requesting delay of depositions and continuance.pdf
Exhibit 1 Inter Office Mem.Police chief.pdf
Springfield Notice to take depisiton2 pages.pdf
Claire McCaskill inspires people flyer.pdf
Spfld Police Report.pdf
Claire McCaskill full color flyer Aug 3.pdf
Newspaper article april 6 2003.pdf
State in a mess article.pdf
Commentary tribune.pdf
Kansas city star letter to the editor.pdf
Columbia daily tribume March 22 2003 for the record.pdf
St. Louis article .pdf
Alfidavid 12.pdf
Office cheif dis. council.pdf
Office cheif dis. council page 2.pdf
Plea offer agreement not signed by Steven Reed.pdf
The world is listening. The UK’s Guardian newspaper have just reported this story: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/03/china
There is hope.
Bluecloud
I just completed my Master’s thesis on the impact of blogging on regime change in China, ironically had I written it in China I too might suffer government punishment.
Hu Jia is a well known archivist of Chinese injustice by the government often utilizing the Internet via blogging. The Government has been after him for a long time, and evidently they believe they can silence him by putting him prison. Of course if we don’t speak out, they may be right.
i am living in shanghai Chinamainland, honestly I think this Hu jia guy is really funny, i guess he may have some mentle disorder? Western guys, stupid white trash, do you think you are superior? you know NOTHING about the situation in China, you know NOTHING about what the chinese people really want, as an ordinary chinese guy, i can’t help laghing, you are so pathetic, let HuJia rot in jail, a smelly bug
Thanks for your opinion, tristin.
I am very sceptical that Hu Jia is just an ordinary blogger and activist who is unluckily targetted by the government as an exemplary case to frighten off other activists from being too critical of the government. If details of the government’s charges and evidence are scrutinized, activists will often claim that those charges and evidence are trumped up. Is there anyway to find out the truth of the case?
I haven’t seen any mention of the evidence of which you speak in any legitimate media, which makes sense because no reporters or diplomats were allowed to attend the trial. Xinhua did mention the titles of two of the allegedly illegal articles, but unfortunately has since deleted that statement.
It’s too bad you feel very sceptical about Hu Jia’s identity, but then again all the background information you need is out there. Here’s one place to start.
Dear Nano, Tristin, and others -
Your brainy comments bring to mind a poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) who was outraged “about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group.” I have changed a few words, just to suit the occasion.
In China, they came first for the journalists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a journalist;
And then they came for the HIV activists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t an HIV activist;
And then they came for the bloggers, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a blogger;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.
Jotman, your holier-than-thou and dismissive attitude towards anyone who you perceive to be pro-China is borderline racist to say the least. Did you even bother to read Nano’s post? He was asking for more details, just like anyone would before they make an informed decision.
Tristin’s comment about how people such as yourself think they are superior to the average Chinese is right on target. It’s obvious that you think you know more than the average Chinese, even about their country. I still don’t see anyone asking the basic question which Tristin asked : “What do you know about what the Chinese people want”? Elitists such as yourself THINK you know what’s the best for the Chinese people.
Being pompous isn’t going to get you anywhere in life.
It seems that this guy has actually being doing good work for the Chinese people, which does bring up the question as to why would the Chinese government put him in jail. My guess is that his AIDS work showed how incompetent the Chinese government really is. That would be more than enough to piss off the Chinese government but in addition he probably also received some foreign money to do his work as a critic of China. This is definitely a no-no not only in China but pretty much in any nation.
Since this article did mention something about a rapper, it’s interesting to note that in the Human Rights game getting jailed is a badge of honor, kinda like in the rap game. Without being martyred anyone can be a famed Human Rights activist.
@urchinesefriend Interesting, but you’re not actually saying anything meaningful when you suggest Hu was foreign-funded without offering the slightest shred of proof. Funny this concern never came up in the trial.
As for whatever game it is that you think you’re talking about, note that the reference was to a song and not to its singer, the title of the song being the unstated point I was trying to make in the post, that easily-accessible technology enables activists to do pretty inspiring things, and in the cases above, the methods and strategies used evolved, got better. Whereas, for example, you in any of those situations might simply regress to a victim role, Hu Jia and his supporters show us that not everyone will. The people above chose to be stronger and do better.
Framing the situation in the way you have, though, I can agree that this is an effective way to trivialize people who have put their lives and wellbeing on the line for honest and good principles that they believe strongly in.
[...] durch eine handvoll Postings. Wie bedroht fühlt sich die Volksrepublik? Bei Peking Duck und Global Voices Online gibt es mehr Material, das man lesen und ansehen sollte. von carsten raddatz um 23:37 | abgelegt [...]
John Kenney wrote : “but you’re not actually saying anything meaningful when you suggest Hu was foreign-funded without offering the slightest shred of proof.”
I hope it’s obvious to people that I do know at least how to google and I do google before I make statements about other people.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/MATERIAL/158625.htm
” In November last year, he and four other environmental activists were given the Figures of Green China in 2005 award, the first awards for environmentalists sponsored by the central government and supported by the United Nations Environmental Program.”
In my last post, the link which I provided was about LiangConjie. Here is a piece of Hu Jia.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=ENGASA170112006
“According to Hu Jia, some international donors who helped to fund the operations of the organization withdrew their support to the group under pressure from the Chinese government and its volunteers were intimidated.”
Mind you, fighting AIDS is not a bad thing.
Sorry, ur chinese friend, I just don’t see what you see in that article.
As a grassroot activist, Hu Jia has been involved in some honorable causes, such as bringing the plight of the HIV/AIDS patients in China to people’s attention. He should be applauded for trying to make a difference. For China’s human rights conditions to improve, it will need more of the home-grown activists that truly want to make a difference for people at the bottom of the society. Real people with real grievances in their day-to-day life.
Unfortunately, his activism had somehow become the target of the government. Maybe he had became so frustrated with the system he felt it might be helpful to bring in the influence of some government institutions and NGOs in the west that have been considered by the Chinese government as “traditionally hostile forces”. I question the wisdom of this tactic. It also would not help that by proudly displaying his admiration of Dalai Lama, a figure that has been so distorted in the mind of regular Chinese, he seemed to have brought his activism into the realm of ideology. The apparently confrontational rhetoric in some of the Chinese entries on his Livespace blog, especially in later years, demonstrated his anger and animosity towards the government. Nevertheless, people should admire the courage shown by Hu and Zeng, a young couple with an infant daughter taking on the system and pray for Hu’s safety and health.
In a sense, Hu’s incarceration might be a blessing in disguise. As he sits alone in his cell, like many anti-establishment activists before him inside and outside China, he will be well served not to dwell on his anger, but take the time to ponder his future role in China’s transformation, a martyr, an exile, or a leader in his homeland.
Everyone is missing the point. The point is, Free Speech is non-existent in China. Freedom is not something that the Chinese people understand, or support. They are comfortable living under a strictly controlled society that tells them how to think, and act. As a sponsor of a college student from Shanghai, I can speak first hand how my country has positively impacted this young person. I wonder from time to time, just how life in China and the world would be if these beautiful people were free like me.
S4T,
Thanks you for the clarifications. It does help me to understand the situation better. Bringing in the foreign NGOs and Dalai Lama are definitely a no-no. Hopefully on his appeal, his sentence can be reduced to a token charge. My sympathies to his wife and kid.
Frank Calamia,
“..Free Speech is non-existent in China.”
I don’t agree with that. There may be no absolute freedom of speech in China but so is USA. In USA, Political Correct speech is heavily censored and not permitted too. Generally, the present governance of China is acceptable to most Chinese. I wonder why you gave the impression that people in China are not having social, economic or political freedom. Often, it’s imprudent to enforce your value system onto another society. Different people, different culture and different way of life. Absolute freedom will bring anarchy. Westerners are fond of criticising Asians through their own narrow tunnel vision.
Nano,
“Westerners are fond of criticising Asians through their own narrow tunnel vision.”
You mean to say that they’re fond of criticising governments that they don’t agree with. It’d be a fallacy to think that all “Westerners” are out to attack “Asians”. Believe it or not, there are a good number of “Westerners” who speak up on these things with good intentions in their hearts. How you make of their attempts is your own business, but please remember that the argument cannot simply be split into a discourse between ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’. Also remember that phrases like “tunnel vision” can be interpreted as true for either party, and that it only serves to erect a bulwark for productive international relations.
In short, certin people here (on both sides of the argument) are too dismissive of one another. They are the people that will never be of any use in constructive world politics.
You indicate that you believe the government of China allows the people social, economic, and political freedom. Hmmmmm I suppose censoring the internet, the press, and your free speech is a figment of my imagination. Your government will never have a Martin Luther King because such a person would be arrested and put in prison for speaking the truth. And, finally, do you really think people in the world will believe that in America we do not have free speech? Get real!!! As an American, I respect and cherish your culture. I just do not have to like your government because it is not representative of the great people of China who deserve to be free!
@Frank Calamia:
Thank u for ur “frank” statement of Chinese people who have no “freedom” in ur eyes, u r frank, but ur miserably ignorant and arrogant.As one of the post-80s generation, i know what happens in china, i know what you guys are thinking towards us, i can also “frankly” tell u, u don’t know our culture,our history and the mode we are living! it’s you who is blind and brain-washed, because although we are living China, we are able to collect information from all the sides.After hearing what u saying and thinking, i have to say u have a wrong vision towards us. Thank u for mentioning the term “free”, yes, you are more free than us, you are free to send troops to invade other country for OIL.As a sponsor of a chinese student, u consider his past as “negative” so you can proudly say ur country ” positively” influenced him, i donnt see any respect in it, and i think u are not talking and thinking like an educated person.
John Kennedy,
HUH? You wrote: “but you’re not actually saying anything meaningful when you suggest Hu was foreign-funded without offering the slightest shred of proof. Funny this concern never came up in the trial.”
I have provided evidence that Hu was foreign-funded, as Hu Jia admitted himself that he has been receiving less over-sea funds due to Chinese government’s harassment. I expected you to understand this easily.
Reading your comment more carefully this time, it sounds like you actually went to his trial. Since the transcripts of his trial was never published, the only way you could be sure of what came up during the trial is for you to be there. The Western media reported that the evidence “included internet articles and interviews”, which is hardly detailed nor at all inclusive.
I believe I share similar sentiments as the poster SA4 expect his post is a lot more eloquent than mine. I also think that the jail time will be good for Hu’s career as a Human Rights activist in China.
John Kennedy,
HUH? You wrote: “but you’re not actually saying anything meaningful when you suggest Hu was foreign-funded without offering the slightest shred of proof. Funny this concern never came up in the trial.”
I have provided evidence that Hu was foreign-funded, as Hu Jia admitted himself that he has been receiving less over-sea funds due to Chinese government’s harassment. I expected you to understand this easily.
Reading your comment more carefully this time, it sounds like you actually went to his trial. Since the transcripts of his trial was never published, the only way you could be sure of what came up during the trial is for you to be there. The Western media reported that the evidence “included internet articles and interviews”, which is hardly detailed nor at all inclusive.
I believe I share similar sentiments as the poster SA4 expect his post is a lot more eloquent than mine. I also think that the jail time will be good for Hu’s career as a Human Rights activist in China.
It’s good that someone mentioned MLK, as we are commemorating the 40th anniversary of his ASSASSINATION in the US. Imaging what would happen with the Civil Rights Movements if he were to introduce foreign influences into his struggle and/or get involved with radical militancy movements such as the Black Panther.
China needs improve on its freedom among a long list of other things. But that can only be done by Chinese people themselves because whatever the path of transformation China takes, the people that live there will have to decide and live with the consequences of that change, be it a radical revolution or a gradual evolution.
Frank the Calamari wrote: “Your government will never have a Martin Luther King because such a person would be arrested and put in prison for speaking the truth.”
So far, I have tried to avoid bashing the US because I believe it’s really a wonderful country. But if Frank you want to use MLK as an example of how the US is tolerant then you should look elsewhere. The last time I checked MLK was shot in the head, which IMO is a lot better than getting locked up in jail.
And what of MLK’s vision? 40 years after his death, half of the US prisons are filled with blacks. Some 25% of black youth will be in prison eventually, which is also the same percentage of blacks who fell below the poverty line. Despite what Americans say about MLK and his “truths”, statistics show that they discriminate to no end.
As you wrote, maybe se people don’t really care about the so called “freedom”. China’s still a 3rd world nation where people are struggling to get food on the table. People such as yourself wet over yourselves when talking about providing “freedom” to 3rd world nations are nothing more than Marion Antoinette, whose famous words were “let them eat cake!”. You have no idea what the Chinese people prioritize, yet when you failed to force your own ideals down their throat you disparage them as sheeps to their government. You claim you love the beautiful China people but I would bet that the shanghai college student of yours think you are just another bigot.
Dear Tristin:
I am not afraid to use my real name in this communication. That is because I do not fear my government. I am familiar with your history. I suppose you are proud of Chaiman Mao’s “Cultural Revolution” and purges of innocent people that were perpatrated in the name of socialism. How about the massacer of your own students who demanded democracy? I advocate for a free China so its people can invent, prosper, and have as many children as they desire. You say that I am ignorant about your people and country. I live in California, an area with thousands of “American” Chinese. They know your history better than you. Reach out to them and ask them if they would give up America for the PRC and they will start signing the American National Anthem. You are obviously an apologist for your government. By the way, what is your monthly communist party salary?
My government is not perfect. At least I can vote GW out in the fall. I am sick of my government’s adventurism just so your country can keep the flow of oil going into your tanks. Yes, what would you do without America? You are so free. What have you invented other than gun powder? Your factories churn out other peoples inventions, and ideas. China has not made one single contribution to human kind in a thousand years of oppression. Don’t you think it is time to set the Chinese people free to dream? I certainly do. I will continue the fight for a free and democratic PRC.
Your comments about MLK miss the point, which is the freedom to speak out against my government and its injustices towards blacks. I admit that a disproportionate number of blacks fill our prisions, but in this country, when you commit a crime, and a jury of your peers finds you guilty, you go to jail. Notice, I said a jury of your peers. A concept that China does not now recognize. I would never force my ideals on people. I believe it is the right of every human being to determine his or her own destiny. What right does the PRC have in telling you where to work, or what career you will have? It is the human spirit that needs to be free. If you find me at fault for wanting the Chinese people to be free, then I plead guilty. I suppose then, you would put me in jail too.
ur chinese friend, you haven’t provided evidence of anything. If Hu Jia claimed he was foreign-funded, let’s see your source. The article you link to above doesn’t even mention Hu Jia. Is he one of the other four environmentalists mentioned there? If he was, does it even make a difference? Hu Jia obviously wasn’t sent to prison for environmental work that is funded in part by the UN and gets glowing coverage from Chinese state media or whatever on earth china.org.cn is.
Then you say western media reports on Hu’s trial provided no more detail beyond “internet articles and interviews.” I say you haven’t done your homework; even Xinhua listed out specific titles, in English and in Chinese. At this point, I really don’t see what it is that you think is so important to prove, or what your intentions are. I thank you for taking the time to comment on this post, but based on the clear disclaimer given below, I have to warn you that mockery of other commenters’ names is unacceptable. To Frank Calamia, please accept my apology on ur chinese friend’s behalf.
@Frank Calamia
“What right does the PRC have in telling you where to work, or what career you will have?”
Let’s be fair. Unless the student you sponsored from Shanghai was born in the 50s. He should be able to tell you that economic mobility in terms of where to live and what job to have is, for the most part, not limited by the government, but rather by the concentration of population in major metropolitan areas such as Shanghai, among other things. That’s why he is very fortunate to be able to come study in the US and maybe start a life here, comparing most of his classmates and friends, who have to worry about getting a job after they graduate.
Many decided to take the government incentive and go WEST, such as Tibet and Xinjiang. But that would be a whole other different debate (can of worms).
Let’s just stick to the subject at hand. I would love to hear any comments regarding my previous posting.
S4T: ” It’s good that someone mentioned MLK, as we are commemorating the 40th anniversary…”
I agree with you. I hope that China’s transformation is peacefull. The government probably will not change without significant pressure from the people. Human nature shows that people in power rarely willingly give up their positions. In China’s case, the communist party will declare a people’s revolt as an insurrection against the revolution. The questions remains then, will the Army support the government if the move to a more democratic form of government is widely supported in China’s major cities. Without the military, the government is powerless. Therein lies the key to change…
“Without the military, the government is powerless. Therein lies the key to change…”
Interesting argument. However CCP knows this all too well based on the experience of their rise to power.
So what are the alternatives?
John Kennedy wrote: “ur chinese friend, you haven’t provided evidence of anything. If Hu Jia claimed he was foreign-funded, let’s see your source”
Hmm, I actually did posted a 2nd link yesterday while stuck at an airport the moment after I posted the first one because I realized that my first post was about LiangCongjie. I thought the post would come through but it did not. “According to Hu Jia, some international donors who helped to fund the operations of the organization withdrew their support to the group under pressure from the Chinese government and its volunteers were intimidated.”
http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=ENGASA170112006
Plus, if you just go on Hu Jia’s Friends of Nature website (http://www.fon.org.cn/) you can see that its sponsored by Shell Oil (odd).
I’ve thought I’ve made my points are clear: Hu Jia had good intentions but then I speculated that he probably had foreign money from who knows where. You immediately said that I don’t have any evidence that he received foreign funds, and here we are. Keep in mind that there is nothing wrong with taking in foreign donors for a good cause. However most governments, including the US, are against foreign money influencing local politics and for good reasons too. I am also speculating, but if you have anything which would prove me to be wrong then post here.
On the trial itself, I did not read Xinhua news. I don’t like Chinese news sites because they have no credibility, although they are not much less biased than western news outlets on certain issues. I googled the trial and read somewhere that no reporters were allowed so I figured there is no way to verify the charges anyway.
Point taken on the name calling then. I will stop it.
S4T: Let the people of China follow in the foot steps of Gandhi. He gave the people a new term for his movement called, Satyagraha, to describe his non-violent movement. The greatest power on the planet during his day was GB. His movement defeated this great power and set the stage for modern day India. I particularly like this quote from him in 1948:
“I will give you a talisman. Whenever you are in doubt, or when the self becomes too much with you, apply the following test. Recall the face of the poorest and the weakest man [woman] whom you may have seen, and ask yourself, if the step you contemplate is going to be of any use to him [her]. Will he [she] gain anything by it? Will it restore him [her] to a control over his [her] own life and destiny? In other words, will it lead to swaraj [freedom] for the hungry and spiritually starving millions?
Then you will find your doubts and your self melt away.”
This is the ALTERNATIVE.
Frank wrote :”What right does the PRC have in telling you where to work, or what career you will have? It is the human spirit that needs to be free. If you find me at fault for wanting the Chinese people to be free, then I plead guilty. I suppose then, you would put me in jail too.”
I see that you are still brainwashed with the cold war propaganda bs. Ask your Shanghai student when he/she goes back will he/she be able to choose where she lives or where to work or what to be. To be honest I find your views unintentionally funny. You speak as if people in every nation would choose political freedom over stability. If every human spirit needs to be free then how is that in countries like Singapore where the citizens have plenty of wealth to leave, most are rather content at being ruled by an authoritarian government? I would like to see you types actually go to China or other 3rd world nations and preach the stuff you say now. I am pretty much sure most of the citizens will laugh you off once they hear that you can’t offer anything material to them.
I like these thought provoking discussions. Him and MLK are very good examples of the non-violent grassroot activism that brought about far reaching social changes that are still on-going and relevant today. Although their personal fate are not very comforting if people like Hu Jia would like to follow their footsteps.
I’d just like to mention that anyone interested in following Hu Jia’s situation is encouraged to follow this Twitter account: https://twitter.com/freehujia
If you do, please consider sending a message (@freehujia) for people to see, and to let your friends know. Hu Jia has a week left in which to make an appeal, so let’s make every minute of it count.
To Frank Calamia,
“Hmmmmm I suppose censoring the internet, the press, and your free speech is a figment of my imagination.” …”And, finally, do you really think people in the world will believe that in America we do not have free speech?”
I don’t doubt USA has free speech but freedom of speech in most countries is only a matter of degree (as in China). In USA, the government also censors speech through expensive legal suits and many victims are bankrupted as a result. Threats of libel suits are now routinely used to muzzle the press and media. In additon,the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) controls the broadcasting media and can revoke their licenses if they are found to breach its broadcasting restrictions. So don’t hoodwink us to believe that USA does not have restrictions on speech.
My dear Chinese friend: Your true colors come true with your words:
“You speak as if people in every nation would choose political freedom over stability.” There you have it, you opt for stability over freedom. How pathetic it is that you would sacrifice freedom for authoritarian forms of government just so you can pursue your own selfish ambitions. And, just to set the record straight, the cold war ended a decade ago. I am well read and I have traveled the world. I can compare and contrast different cultures and governments. You sir, are the one who lacks depth. Again, if your government is so good, tell me one thing that it has done for the betterment of mankind. What have the Chinese people invented to positively impact mankind? The people of China’s spirit is locked in a box. I hope someone finds the key so China’s potential will be fully achieved.
One more point:
Regular Army soldiers in America do not murder their countryman. We do not have to call out the Army to squash people demonstrations. We do not send in the Army to arrest and murder people just because they opted to worship God. And, we do not send the Regular Army to garrison any town, province, or city in America. But, for you, stability is far more convenient than political freedom, or the power of the people to elect their own government.
john kennedy,
I remember I’ve posted two posts here, one to frank and one to you a few hours ago and only one appeared. I am not sure if I am being modded on this particular topic or if this thread’s comments section is closed, but if you are going to leave your comment bashing me for not providing any evidence of hu receiving foreign funds, then at least have the basic integrity leave my last post about hu with the link from amnestyusa as well. It was you who was asking for it after all and I don’t think you are the type who would practice in censorship yourself. Either way I won’t be posting on this thread anymore.
You’re right, ur chinese friend, no censorship here. Your two comments and one from Frank (#33) went into the spam pile. Sorry about that.
@Frank Calamia
“Regular Army soldiers in America do not murder their countryman. We do not have to call out the Army to squash people demonstrations.”
Not quite true. Remember Kent State?
Kent State was a tragic event. Please note that I was referring to Regular Army soldiers. It was the National Guard, our part time civilian militia that fired the shots. Besides, my point about the army should be obvious.
To set the record straight:
The FCC was established in 1934. Since then, there has never been a radio station or Television Station shut down by the FCC. Fewer than 1 percent of the license renewals are not immediately renewed. Still fewer are not renewed.
Do you know the definition of Libel? It is one of our rights to bring suits against any one, any business, who slanders or defames. Even non-US Citizens living and working in my country can bring Libel suits and seek damages…..even if the defendant is a large company.
“Please note that I was referring to Regular Army soldiers. It was the National Guard, our part time civilian militia that fired the shots.”
Now come on Frank let’s be sincere in our argument. I was just starting to get hopeful of some meaningful dialogue. So, by the same token, all those national guard solidiers serving in Iraq are just a bunch of trigger happy militiaman running amok?
I hope you are encouraging same kind of debate from your friend from Shanghai or he just happen to agree with everything you say?
@Frank Calamia
Hold ur pathetic imagination about China,i live in china and i found ur statement is ridiculous.and i am gonna ask you what has ur country done for “the betterment of mankind”? sending troops to middle-east to overthrow an legal goverment for OIL? sending CIA angents to do all the dirty job in other country? your ignorant statement revealed that u donnt understand chinese people.
Ok, I promised I won’t post on this thread anymore but I could not resist.
Frank, it’s not THAT hard to scroll up and see what you had posted, for it was you who implied that Chinese have no control over where they work or their own careers. After I suggested you are wrong over this fact, you are now saying that I am ignorant? Hey, it wasn’t me who made a factual mistake, it was you. A 12 year old could argue better than that.
Regarding the choices of stability over freedom, it’s obvious that many people would choose the former. It’s you who can’t accept this simple fact. When I asked you to explain how could people in Singapore choose on their freewill stability over political freedom if you claim that human freedom is the most important thing, you went off an tangent, made some personal attacks (which I am fine with btw since I make them too), bragged about how much you know about the world, and then asked me what good has Chinese government done to mankind? What does that have to do with anything? Can you just simply answer my question with your enhanced understanding of different cultures?
“The people of China’s spirit is locked in a box. I hope someone finds the key so China’s potential will be fully achieved.” ^_^ very interesting! now the spirit of us is locked, ur country consider us as a “threat” and deploy troops and missiles around China, one day when our potential is fully achieved, what will u do? to drop several nukebombs directly on our head??!!hhaa you know ur country and u keep reminding me of one word: HYPOCRICY.
Perhaps you can not tell the difference between “Federal” troops and “State Troops.” And, this then, is the point. The Government of the United States does not send in the Army!! The State of Ohio dispatched its National Guard to Kent State. Perhaps you should go to this link and read about it….
http://dept.kent.edu/sociology/lewis/lewihen.htm
With respect to the National Guard in Iraq: I resent your inference that they are trigger happy militiaman. Do you want a meaningful dialogue or just more bs in a lame attempt to prove a point. The National Guard structure of 1970 is no where near what it is today. Then, the NG was primarily designated as a strategic reserve force for the Federal Government. The NG of 1970 was used most often as a State resource. Today, the NG is a fully integrated element of the Active components of the US Military.
By the way, lets keep to the subject of this debate. Hu Jia is an example of how oppressive the Communist Party in China is to citizens speaking out for human rights and freedom. Why is the government of China so afraid of free speech? Ur chinese friend seems to advocate that Hu Jia’s actions would lead to a break down of order and discipline in China’s society. His preference, and that of many Chinese people, is for stability instead of political freedom, and the right to choose your own government leaders. What say you to his arguement?
Dear Tristin:“The people of China’s spirit is locked in a box…”
American’s are not afraid of China. Yet, since the revolution, your country has barraged you with information that America is your enemy. I am not pleased with the actions of my government all of the time. I certainly would never support acts of aggression against the Chinese people. It is governments that sound the drum beat of war. I am afraid that both our governments could use propaganda to start a war one day. Particularly troubling in my government’s pacts with Taiwan. This may come as a surprise to you, but I believe Taiwan is part of the Middle Kingdom. It is liken to Hawaii for the US. Would we fight to keep Hawaii? You bet we would.
In my travels to Europe and South East Asia, I had the pleasure of dinning with families in these countries. I learned that families are all the same irrespective of what country you are in. We all want peace, prosperity, and a better life for our children.
While in Vietnam, I visited a professor’s home. In the privacy of his home we talked politics. We both agreed, that the war in Vietnam caused the change in government from one corrupt entity to another. China is not so different. Chiang Kai-Shek was a corrupt, murderous, leader who managed to unite China for a time. Following his ouster by the communist, a new, equally corrupt and murderous government was installed.
The only hope for peace in our time is for China to become more democratic and less fearful of Americans.
@Frank Calamia
“What have you invented other than gun powder?”
Now Mr. Calamia, I admit I was dead wrong by being hopeful. I thought you were a decent person with a real passion to help China but it turned out you seemed to be another reinforcing example of stereotypical American. Maybe you believe truly in your heart that you’re helping your friend from Shanghai escaping from tyranny. But I’m hope you were not requiring him to submit to all of your opinions as the condition of your sponsorship, unless he happens to agree with everything you say.
I’m sure there will be a lot contribution about the story of “gun powder” from many of these Chinese posters, whom many of you accuse as government agents but yet seemed to much more diligent and passionate about their “job” then the lazy, inefficient, mahjong experts you often meet in government agencies there.
Please do have a blast there but remember: don’t drink and drive and stay away from the hooligans cause they are unpredictable!
As for me, sorry I can not come to your party. Because one, I do have to take my children to school and go to work, and two, I will be busy searching Travelocity with the hope that people will start cancelling their trips so I can get a better deal to go to China in the summer. You won’t believe how much they ask for a round trip China tickets these days. See I’m a shallow person with earthy goals.
FYI, I always thought it was a silly idea to plan the relay like they did. But then again what can you do. It’s the government.
The truth is that the actions of the U.S. have often failed to measure up to its own rhetoric. This is obvious to anyone who has examined the country’s policy in the Middle East since the middle of the last century and the response to 9/11. It’s also true that ordinary mainland Chinese have more freedom now than at any point in the country’s modern history.
Hopefully, the U.S. will begin to right the wrongs of the past half century, not to mention the past seven years, and be the example it could be. I’m also hopeful that China will eventually stop detaining and imprisoning people like Hu Jia, who have the best interests of the Chinese people at heart.
Long live the memory and spirit of MLK.
S4T: Gosh I was hoping for an intellectual discussion, but you disappoint me. The reason I challenged you to list China’s innovations since gun powder was to prove the point that an oppressed people lack the morale to create. Gosh, you couldn’t see the message behind my statements? I, and the rest of the free world, are free to express ourselves, to invent, to create, and to dream!
Darn, the military treatise of Wujing zongyao in 1044 concerning the use of gun powder in war fare is such a long time ago. I dream of a China free to dream and create new things. Alas, it will never happen with a government that is so controlling as to stamp out the fire of freedom from its people.
p.s. My Chinese student can think on his own. I do not need to point out the obvious to him since he can easily compare and contrast to two countries structure.
@Frank Calamia,
“The FCC was established in 1934. Since then, there has never been a radio station or Television Station shut down by the FCC”
For your information:
1988 - FCC revoked licence of San Francisco public TV station KQEC.
1992 - FCC fined Infinity Broadcastng US$600,000.
2002 - FCC proposed to revoke all radio licences held by Peninsula Communication, Inc. and imposed a fine of US$140,000.
I believe there are many more such cases that could be unearthed given the time and patience. You still want us to believe that in USA, freedom of speech is not subject to government’s restrictions and threats of censorship?
Am really lucky that i am not Chinese coz i have freedom of speech and also i can write anything i want in any news magazine be i don’t know whether i can write in Chinese magazine even if i write China fucking Govt can’t do anything for me but one thing is sure that either thiy will deleted my articles or imprisonment the magazine publisher.
today i was really moved by hearing unfair punisment given to Mr Hu and to his family member specially about his wife and baby girl. i think chinese brother and sister should do something for him and i don’t know what UNO IS DOING
i think we should fuck both Wen Jiabao and Hu HU Jintao
before Olympic
@Frank Calamia:
Knowing that u are sponsor of one college student from Shanghai and i am living in that city, i feel it interesting to debate with u on the misunderstandings you are holding on chineses people and government.
“I am familiar with your history”
well, maybe you are, but i am not only the one who is familiar with our history but also i am living in it,we are witnessing it and creating it.
“I suppose you are proud of Chaiman Mao’s“Cultural Revolution””
^_^ it’s amusing to see people like u talking about the things u donnt know at all.i was born after 1980 so i didn’t experience it, but guess what, my dad was one of the “Red Gaurds” when he was a teenage,sometimes we talked about it and i know a lot about that.i am NOT proud of it,actually no one in China is proud of it,becsuse it was tragedy both to individuals and the coutry. sometimes we do admire Mao not becsuse he was the leader in CCP or dictator,but becaude he united chinese people to regain the glory of this country.
i am sorry to say McCarthyism still has so many fans like u in USA.
“what is your monthly communist party salary? ”
that’s the most funny part, in china, actully if u are member of CCP,u have to pay monthly fee to it
communist party salay? hahaha ur ignorancy shocked and amused me alot. yes everyone of us posting here is a government agents，have u checked ur IQ recently?
BTW ur “gun powder” thoery maybe right, we invented gun powder so we use it to make fireworks to celebrate Spring Festivle, but you are so free to use it in campus shooting！
@Frank Calamia:
1. This may come as a surprise to you, but the Chinese government after 1978 NEVER “barrage the people with infomation that US is an enemy”. In fact, in the 80’s and 90’s, until 1998, most Chinese people loved America, and that’s why the 1989 event could occur at all. It was in recent years, after the internet boom, after when people have means to get information from outside the state media, that the attitude of ordinary people has changed. Now? People will be pissed off once they know you have any western background or support. Why this happened? Blame certain shameless “democratic activists” like Cai Lin, blame certain Falun Gong practioners who created the Epoch Times, blame the recent western media scandal in fabricating pictures and stories, and most of all, blame the US for its horrible actions in the recent decade. We don’t trust US anymore, not because the government tells us to, but because any rational person won’t trust a government who invaded another country without UN permissions, who caused a MILLION civilian deaths in 5 years, just for oil. Fair enough?
2. OK, you are saying, just like many Americans I have seen recently, that you “don’t like” what your government did, you don’t “support it”, and that you are not responsible for it because that’s not what you can control. That’s true, and I don’t blame you for what your country did. But that also means, you are in no position to say that US is not an enemy of China.
3. No, China is not not fearful of Americans, not in 1950, not now, and won’t ever. And the only hope for peace in our time is not for China to become more democratic or less fearful of Americans, it’s for US to abandon its notorious Unilateralism.
Finally, my suggestions to westerners who concerns the human rights situations in China purely out of good wishes, please make sure you know what you are talking about (come to China and see for yourself if you can) before you talk, tell your media to stop fabricating news to bash China and brain-wash your countrymen, and leave it to the Chinese people to decide what’s best for them. Thank you very much.
A pity that this thread has become debate about the USA & China. Many people reading this do not support the politics of the US or of the Chinese government.
I live in Germany, so maybe I have a more neutral position on this. I see Hu Jia’s case as one of freedom of speech. This is a basic human right which should be recognised by all.
Saying that, I am also an activist and have been arrested in a number of European countries for my actions. Sometimes change can only occur by breaking the law. Lets hope that the Chinese authorities choose to see the need for change in the light of Hu Jia and the approaching Olympics.
“A pity that this thread has become debate about the USA & China.”
I agree Blue Cloud. Something terrible has happened to Hu Jia. I feel the immortal words of Paster Martin Niemöller are relevant to the continuing trend in the comments above. Concerning Hu Jia, I don’t think it matters if you are a German, American, Chinese, or whatever. The guy has been fighting for us all: HIV, the environment, these are global issues! Hu Jia’s plight isn’t mainly a Chinese issue. Each of us, as human beings, should feel ashamed that any state would deliver such an injustice to a man so committed to advancing justice.
And then they came for the Tibetans, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Tibetan;
@Bluecloud, Jotman:
You didn’t get the point…
The point is that if he is supported by the majority of Chinese netizens, he would not have been arrested and jailed so easily, so silently. Why didn’t he get the support? I have read one of his blog posts, and I don’t like it at all. It’s a standard “Epoch Times”-style article, full of examples I have no way to check their correctness (and no details on how he got to know them), full of complains on the current government, and no single word of approval, encouragement or constructive suggestion. What’s worst, he is connected with the west.
I don’t need to provide any evidence on this, because the fact that he is reported by those western NGO’s is enough. Those NGO’s have ruined their reputation in China by reporting mostly Falun Gong-related people in the past, by citing the notorious Epoch Times, etc. There are plenty of mistreated, widely-supported figures in China, why exactly did those NGO’s not report them? Are they just too stupid? Or are they really bearing a good intention?
About Hu Jia, I found an article at http://ks.cn.yahoo.com/question/1307021102319.html, which called him “the angel of nature”, the content is very “Epoch Times”-style to me, with some laughable fallacies. Articles like this would only damage his reputation.
You might say whoever he is, whether he is supported by most people or not, he should not be jailed. Firstly, I’m not sure whether he indeed violated the law or not, and after the recent western media scandal, it’s hard to get information on it from someone I can trust. Secondly, the human rights situation in China is certainly far from satisfactory, everyone knows this, and a case with little sympathy from our people is obviously not good for making a breakthrough here.
Dear Jotman:
I’ll tell you a truth,in China,before the era of internet,we never thought America as our enemy,actually American culture is something fashinable and attractive in our eyes.
However, after 1998, we are able to get information through web.we can see CNN,BBC etc and some BBS like this, we are able to collect information from YOUR MEDIA instead our own government, but what did i see?
I see an ugly world which has no LAW and has only Jungle rules, and ur lovely coutry plays a role of Lion King.
So donnt pretend to be morally superior to us. yr coutry wanna be the king, so be it,but donnt make me nauseate with these hypocritic and disgusting words.
Dear Tristin:
I see some people here want to make this discussion about national culture, my nationality Vs your nationality; about the biases within the media of this nation or that nation; for this to be a discussion about whether a person commenting carries this passport or that passport.
I refuse to play this game.
If China keeps locking away people who try to speak out about China’s failing environment, its failing health care system, its failing legal system, the entire world suffers. These threats have gone unexamined for too long in China’s closed society.
Hu Jia was the rare exception. Someone who looked at these pressing issues. Hu Jia fought China’s fight. But its also the fight of Swedish, Mexicans, Pakistanis, British, Polish, and Egyptians and others.
Because Hu Jia’s fight is the fight for a livable planet. The things that have concerned Hu Jai concern us all.
We all need for his direct questions to receive clear answers. Every human being is entitled to express anger about the plight of Hu Jia, whatever his or her passport.
@Tristin,
I heartily agree with your comments on the true face of western media. They always pretend to hold the high moral ground while committing and covering up their sins of non-objective reporting. Most of the time, they get paid handsomely to do these PR campaigns against certain targets. As of those westerners, they are so easily hookwinked by their own media that they become judgemental based on their preconceived bias.
@Jotman
You are one hundred percent correct. I am amazed by some hear that say they can go on the internet and read Western media reports. I thought the CCP blocked all Western media outlets. I suppose I am a victim of Western propaganda…..haha
@Jotman
I regard highly of Hu Jia’s work on environmental protection and AIDS awareness and indeed sympathise with his family who also have to suffer. But if he has violated the nation’s laws, he has to bear the consequences.
I doubt there is absolute freedom of speech in any country, esp. those related to subversion and sedition. So if his writings, speeches or actions have breached China’s laws or deemed to have undermined China’s social stability, then he has to be dealt with in accordance to the laws. If the laws are not respected, then sooner or later there will be chaos in the nation.
I am sure there are many activists working on similar projects in China but are all of them jailed? I doubt it unless they have breached the laws.
@Nano
I hear you loud and clear…China’s social stability is paramount, and it trumps free speech. Your comments seem to state that Hu Jia’s writings, speeches, and action are subversive and lead to acts of sedition. When does the law of the State become unjust? Are you saying that any law the CCP enacts is just? What are the people to do when the law itself is unjust? If the State passes unjust laws, does that not mean that the State itself is unjust? Isn’t it the duty of the people to seek justice?
When the CCP said that all intellectuals were counter revolutionary, and the Red Guard marched, why did so many people, particularly the young, join in this movement? What does this say about the people? I see parallels between the cultural revolution and the persecution of Hu Jia. Someone earlier said, if Hu Jia was supported by the people then he would not be in jail today. I imagine that there were people of this same mind set when the Red Guard rounded up the intellectuals, doctors, and professors, and stoned them to death.
@Nano
“.. If the laws are not respected, then sooner or later there will be chaos in the nation.”
The law must be challenged if it is unjust. Take Nelson Mandela, or Gandhi as examples of law breakers and you will see what I mean.
No one wants China to fall into chaos. It is in no one’s interests.
@Frank Calamia @Bluecloud,
If China’s laws are unjust, there will be plenty of complaints by the people which may culminate into demonstrations (if the government ignored calls for reform). There may be lawsuits against the government. Let the people in China decide how to fight against unjust laws. The people of Hong Kong are well educated and have practised English laws for decades. Do not always assume that the Chinese people are as ignorant and imbecile as they were during the Cultural Revolution. This is an instance of westerners’ “preconceived bias” which I mentioned earlier.
Individual liberty is as important as social stability. However, I will not allow an individual the liberty to shout “Fire!” “Fire!” in a crowded cinema.
Perhaps you should review these famous words that changed the world forever:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
My last comment here on this matter.
If the westerners here are truly bearing a good intention, hoping for China to become better, you will know that it’s the Chinese people who are the major force in fighting for this target. You can easily blame China on the internet, or call Chinese people idiots, or slaves of the CCP, whatever, it will do nothing other than making Chinese people more supportive of their government, which I guess it’s not a good news to you whatever your intention is.
The west has been taking a radically wrong approach recently in dealing with China, and the result is that Chinese people do not trust the west any more (and hatred is growing), especially in the matter of its political systems reform. The influence and attractiveness of the west to Chinese people in 1989 has long gone, and is unlikely to come back.
I have analyzed the problems of this approach in my earlier comments, and proposed ways for western NGO’s to improve their image in China, but you consider it a “game”. But the fact is, it’s you who are playing a game of bashing China and demanding China to do this and that here, and it’s a meaningless game because the CCP won’t give a shit about what you think.
However unjust the Chinese laws may seem to you, however miserable Chinese people are according to your imaginations, China’s future path is decided by its people. If this means sufferings for the rest of the world, let it be.
As to Hu Jia, for reasons including (but not limited to) what I have mentioned above, he doesn’t have the sympathy from Chinese people, and this can easily be seen from their discussions on this matter all over the globe. But it seems you would rather bash China and call its people slaves of CCP than communicating with them and find out why this is the case, that’s fine, you can continue your “work” here, and it will most definitely be fruitless.
@Nano,XniteMan:
I found meaningless to proceed the debate with these guys.
“counter revolutionary, culture revolution” i guess their impression and knowledge about china has not been updated for a long long long time so i simply can’t communicate with them until their IQ were improved.
i am sorry to see They are making hatred everywhere in the world.
@XniteMan @Nano
It seems you both have fallen into the defensive here. Assuming that anyone who makes comment on the situation in China is playing games, is ignorant or has a low IQ does nothing to move this debate forward.
I am not playing games here. Nor are the people in London or Paris who choose to demonstrate. If you want final words on this matter, I suggest you concede that China is going to have to face reform soooner or later. You are right that its up to the Chinese people to do this, but China is not alone any more. The eyes of the world are on you now.
@Bluecloud:
It seems you aren’t following the debate closely, it was Jotman who first regarded my arguments as a “game”, and I was responding to his accusations.
I already mentioned the political reform in my comment, it’s not a “sooner or later” thing, it’s on the way.
My problem with you guys is that you, espcially Frank, tend to simply dismiss any opposing points by saying “you are brain-washed by the CCP” blah blah.
You tend to be so arrogant, that you consider yourselves always correct, and people who disagree with you must be a slave of CCP. You have no respect for Chinese people.
I have brought up many points on this matter in my previous posts, yet I don’t see any meaningful response from you, only this very bullshit filled with arrogance and nothing else. This doesn’t make a good debate.
You can always look at China, but if you want the Chinese people to care about you, you have to respect them first.
@Xniteman
How can I respect you when you say I am talking bullshit? This does not make for a good debate does it?
Anyway, how can I respect people that do this?
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7982410976871193492&q=dispatches+tibet&total=5&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
Sigh, come to China, come to Tibet, and see with your own eyes.
Xniteman,
Thanks for the invitation. Where are you in China/Tibet? Shame the visas to China have suddenly been restricted.
I have lost all respect for Hu Jia, after reading his rant about “house church”, “The Three Grades”.
Doesn’t he know these Christian sects were banned by the Chinese government because they were killing people in order to retain and compete for membership?
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/202-three-grades-of-servants
These “cult of Christianity”, thou in name are Christian, do not even believe in the Bible. For example The Eastern Light believes Christ has returned to Earth - in the form of a invisible Chinese woman. The Three Grade’s Leader, Xu Shuangfu, actually named himself as the Messiah reborn.
I can understand why politicians in Washington DC with political agenda would forsaken Christ and worship invisibal female Jesus, but Hu Ja should know better.
dear friends
your debating read it carefully, in my opinion, we both blinded by the government of each country. according to the election of america, the candidates must get support from large group, they also protect the profit of it. they won’t protect the common people’s. i admit that chinese government have many defects, such as corruption. but in my opinion there is no restriction to common people. the most important problem is corruption of the government, chinese people need find a right and peaceful way to solve it. but i don’t trust american government will help chinese people to get better life, our life we chose it by ourselves. why america invade iraq without any permission of UN, they admire the oil of it, and the governor of iraq can’t listen to america. so we can’t trust the governor of each country.so don’t intervene the life of chinese people, if you want keep good relationship with us, we welcome!