Overview of the Situation–
On Thursday, January 17th, the Israeli government shut the border crossing between Israel and Gaza, stopping the flow of all goods between the two countries, including food and fuel. On Sunday, Gaza's power plant announced major cutbacks, and by Monday, an estimated 40 per cent of Gaza's population was experiencing blackouts.
With food supplies running low and hospital generators rapidly losing power, international relief groups, including the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, Oxfam, and the World Health Organization declared a looming humanitarian crisis.
In response to mounting international pressure, including a personal phone call from Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak to Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, the blockage was partially lifted and 13 aid trucks entered Gaza today with supplies from Jordan.
Gaza's border with Israel was closed down in response to an especially high number of rockets launched last week. Elder of Ziyon's January Qassam Calendar counted the combined number of rockets at 138 on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. Since the border closing, the number fell to a total of 50 on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday, increasing again to 18 today as the border was partially opened.
Over the last seven years, over 6,300 rockets have been fired by Gazan militants on Israel's civilian population.
Israeli Bloggers Ask: What Would You Do?
Israeli bloggers ask, “What would you do? How would your country react?
Rachel, a rabbinical student living in Jerusalem and the author of the Rachel Chronicles, is critical of the media's condemnation of Israel, asking them to think about Israel's options in the face of ongoing rocket fire on civilian populations.
“What I am not impressed with is the quickness with which people, the media, organizations, etc. are ready to abandon Israel and paint the Israeli government as either an evil empire that submits an entire population to collective punishment, or a weak government that can't keep its' own residents safe. When the Gaza power plant decided to shut down, did it also turn off the lights to the world's critical eye?…
The spin that all the major newspapers in the States is that big bad Israel is cutting off Gaza. And while it is true that the border crossings have been closed, Israel is being very careful not allow a humanitarian crisis to emerge - at least outside of the city of S'derot, which is the one that they are trying to prevent…
S'derot has lived under a barrage of rocket attacks for the past seven years, or so. Israel has been very very patient and blatantly turned a blind eye to the daily torture that Gaza militants have poured on them. It is time for that bullying and harassment to stop. And while I respect the right of the Gaza civilians to live in peace, until the people that they fund, support, house, and hide stop trying to murder the people of S'derot, I will support the Israeli government's attempts to stop that murder.”
Yael of Oleh Girl adds to Rachel's criticism of what she perceives as the media's slanted reporting.
“A lot of newspapers carried as headlines, Abbas’ claim that Israel was conducting a ‘massacre.'
Nowhere did you read during the three days that such headlines listed above were appearing that, during those same three days more than 130 Qassam rockets hit the Israeli city of Sderot. Also during those same three days, more than 80 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israeli civilian communities along the Gaza border. Nowhere did you read that… snipers fired repeatedly at civilian targets or that Hamas issued a statement calling for constant sniper attacks against Israeli farmers and farm workers. Nowhere did you read that, in just the past year alone, Palestinian militants have launched considerably more than 1,000 rockets targeting the civilian population of Sderot.”
The Gentile Warrior questions why Israel is seen as the aggressor when its civilian population is also under attack, and asks how Gaza can simultaneously attack and demand services from Israel.
“Israel didn't do this just for the heck of it. Why doesn't this group accost Hamas, Fatah, and Al Aqsa to stop launching rockets into Israel? Why is the respondent considered the guilty party? If the “palestinians” would stop launching rockets they would have food and fuel. Instead, they allow their elected and unelected leaders to continue with attacks on Israel and expect Israel to keep feeding them. This is beyond insane…
This is a self imposer humanitarian crisis. The “palestinians” brought this retribution down on themselves. This same civilian population put Hamas, a [known] terrorist organization, in charge. This is the repercussions of that ignorant act. Besides, isn't it quite embarrassing to rely on Israel for your basic needs? The same nation the “palestinians” want to erase from the map is the one that can shut off fuel supplies as well as food? It is suicidal to want to destroy the only supplier of daily necessities…
Have them come to us unarmed. Have them come to us after they have overthrown the murderous regime they have put in charge. Until then let them have their self-induced humanitarian crisis. The longer the world caters to these murderers the long they will commit murder.”
David Bogner of Treppenwitz echoes Gentile Warrior's concerns and asks why humanitarian aid is not being channeled through Egypt's border with Gaza.
“Gazastan cannot continue to be both an openly hostile entity, committed to Israel's destruction… and at the same time a fully dependant beggar-state that relies on Israel for all of its basic needs. This kind of dysfunctional relationship has never existed before in the world, and I dare say no other nation would tolerate such a parasitic situation to continue.
The Gazan border with Egypt is, for all intents and purposes, open. Weapons, money and people pour across from Egypt unchecked every single day. There is no reason why the world can't channel it's sympathy for the Gazan population into humanitarian aid supplied via Egypt. Except, of course, that this would remove the albatross from around Israel's neck… something that nobody really wants to do.
The world seems to enjoy the delicious irony of Israel being forced to keep the lights and heat on in the kassam workshops and explosive laboratories of Gaza, even as the lethal fruit of those laboratories rains down on the heads of Israeli civilians in the western Negev.”
World renowned author (and occasional blogger) Naomi Ragen gets specific. She points out that many of the employees of the Ashkelon power plant are residents of neighboring Sderot and that Ashkelon has additionally been the target of attacks.
“Picture this: the electric plant which supplies 70% of electricity to the Palestinians in Gaza is in Ashkelon. The Palestinians in Gaza have been shooting kassam rockets at the plant ever since the ‘disengagement' i.e. the abandonment of Gush Katif [Gaza]. Now, Palestinians are crying that they don't have enough electricity. They are complaining about Israeli sanctions against them. They are going to the U.N.
The truth is, Israel has not stopped supplying electricity to Gaza. Not only that, but Israeli electric company employees are risking their lives to do so.
Mickey Tsarfati, head of the union of electrical workers, was quoted in YNet: ‘It is unbelievable chutzpah for them to complain. We have not stopped supplying them with electricity for a minute. And they have not stopped logging bombs at us for a minute.' Many of the workers who fix the lines to Gaza daily are residents of Sderot. It has happened more than once that bombs fell next to their homes as they were fixing the lines to supply electricity to the bombers.
Now the U.N. and the Quartet, and the Arab League are all getting demands to stop Israeli 'sanctions' against the Gazans…. You tell me what other country would be supplying electricity to people who are bombing their children on a daily basis, and risking their lives to do so.”
Lirun of East Med Sea Peace is concerned with the humanitarian implications of the crisis and suggests a way that Israelis can help provide food for Gazans.
“heard it on the radio this morning.. apparently on saturday morning a convoy of cars will be driving to gaza to pass on some supplies to the gazastanis.. who as you probably all now know are languishing in starvation and darkness.. because apparently nothing short of that could bring the rocket fire to an end..
people who want to drive down and donate flour sugar and rice should be at the arlozorov train station no later than 8 am and the reading bus depot no later than 830am..
i hate the qassam rockets just as much as the next guy.. and as far as i am concerned the hamas and co are collectively punishing a whole region of israel for israel not conforming to hamas' demands.. however - people are starving in gaza and dying of hypothermia because of the measures we are taking and i cant accept that.. “
Meanwhile, Elliot Chodoff of Mideast On Target leaves us with suggestions for Israel's leadership.
“What can be done in the meantime? First, the Israeli leadership needs to conclude that while inaction under the circumstances is bad, improper action is worse. The Gaza population need not be provided with everything its heart desires, but allowing the creation of the image of a humanitarian disaster is counterproductive, especially when the image is false. Second, military activity needs to be stepped up, not only in quantity, but in quality. We have seen early indicators that this is occurring over the past two weeks, but if Sederot and its surroundings are to have any hope of weathering the rocket rainfall of this winter, the IDF will have to operate more intensively in Gaza until the weather permits the extensive operation that will be sure to occur sooner or later. It is high time the Israeli leadership stopped making declarations and starting taking effective action.”
Learn More–
You can learn more about the reactions of the Arab blogosphere from these Global Voices Online authors:
- Palestine: Gaza Under Siege by Amira Al Hussaini
- Egypt: Gaza in the Headlines by Eman Abd al Rahman
- Pitch Black Gaza: Jordanian Bloggers React by Naseem Tarawnah
Your Reactions–
After you have read reactions from the Israeli blogosphere in this post and opinions from Palestine, Egypt, and Jordan from my colleagues, come back here and let us know what you think about the whole situation. What are your reactions reading the voices of those whose lives have been touched on both sides of the border? What do you see as possible solutions? What do you think your country would have done when faced with similar threats from its neighbors?
I look forward to learning from your perspective.
Send this by E-mail
Israel is a racist, apartheid state, and the collective punishment it inflicts upon Palestinians is totally indefensible.
The idea that Israel’s siege of Gaza is somehow being covered in a one sided way is absurd. Gazans have been suffering under Israeli barbarism for months, years, decades.
Palestinian resistance will not end until the Zionist abomination is gone, and we have a secular, democratic Palestine for everyone — Jews, Muslims, Christians, whoever. Until then: free Palestine! Long live the intifada!
The only way to handle this situation is for pragmatic pressure to be exerted on the arab population of Judea & Samaria and the Gaza strip. All communications, all supplies , humanitarian and otherwise should immediately cease. To hell with UN resolutions, to hell with European opinion. Just watch how fast the arab population will rise up and topple Hamas and Abbas just as they did in the Soviet Union and European east block. This will leave a void of power, can that be any worse than now ?
Maya,
I find it appalling to compare the primitive rockets fired from Gaza [noting that, I, in no way condone them. And me having a staunch anti-Hamas position] with the IDF’s incursions, and responses, and abilities. And again with this disgusting collective punishment of Gazans. Moreover, it will only help intensify the bitterness and frustration that Hamas feeds on, in the first place.
The people of Sedrot, have their right to live in Peace, but who exactly is planning to give these rights to Gazans? or maybe to the choking palestinian villages in the west bank and east jerusalem?
Standing with Gaza,
I don’t think that view has gotten any of us anywhere so far. I’d like to try another way.
Are you up for trying something else or is Israel’s destruction your only goal? Do you see any other options?
Maya
Dear Yazan,
There’s nothing primitive about a weapon that causes death and destruction. The purpose of a weapon is to destroy and if it accomplishes that mission, it succeeds in its goal, primitive or not.
Why is it Israel’s place to “give rights” to the Gazans? Shouldn’t the government of Gaza, democratically elected by the people, be the ones who are in charge of that? Isn’t that the government’s purpose? And what about Gaza’s allies and border with Egypt? Israel is not the only one responsible for the health and welfare of the people of Gaza and any portrayal of it as such is inaccurate.
What evidence does Israel have that changes in East Jerusalem or the West Bank will change international relations? It didn’t for Gush Katif [Gaza].
I am not saying that Israel’s actions are right or wrong, but hearing everyone’s perspectives, I don’t see solutions for a viable alternative right now. So I ask you: as you see it, what should Israel do that would bring an end to the bombings? What options are there?
Thanks for your comment, Yazan.
Maya
This is a more straightforward issue than people make it out to be. If I moved into your house, shifted you into the back room and removed your priveledges, stole your fruit tree and prevented you from leaving, or if you ever left prevented you from returning, would you fight me?
This is the only reason Isreal is being fought. If they did not steal people’s lands, move thousands of Jews into palestine and move hundreds of thousands of their lands years ago, there would be no fight.
People just refuse to study the history. Why not do some research on where this issue started if you want to be fair and have the full picture.
When the UN allowed the US to wage a preemptive war in Iraq, it sanctioned an illegal and destructive act. God is punishing the Americans with economic ruin.
When Israel removed forcibly the Israelis from Gush Katif, God made Ari Sharon a vegetable and killed 23 of his henchmen.
Since the Gazans waged preemptive war, God has punished them with food, fuel and medical shortfalls.
Whether or not God was the perpetrator, the circumstances remind us that we human beings must accept responsibility for our acts. We must think through the consequences of our actions.
The world and its humanistic viewpoint cannot provide advice to Israel. They must respond and protect their own peace and way of life. Those in Gaza have a resolute dedication to the destruction of Israel, for them peace using peaceful means is impossible. The Bible tells us in Genesis 16 the sons of Ishmael and Israel will never deal with them intellectually, they will have to be shown forcefully that they must act in a humane way to be treated in a humane way.
This may sound harsh and cruel, but only when Israel has taken stern measures have they found any relief, look at the record.
Hi Nomad,
I’m saying to you the same thing that I said to Standing with Gaza above because your arguments amount to the same end. So where do we go from here?
Don’t tell me that is the only reason because if land possession was the only issue, then Israel’s evacuation of Gaza would have had an impact– it didn’t.
In my opinion, sticking to a pre-1948 argument is an absolute dead end. I don’t see any other group in the world being held to those standards, except maybe China and Tibet (which is a whole different package).
If you want to talk about history, let’s talk about what happened in ‘67 when the borders Israel holds now were established. You think Israel set out to conquer that territory in a move of Manifest Destiny? No way. If the Palestinians were dead set on a state, then why let Israel stop you? Why not go after it with every political alliance possible? As you can see from the timeline below, it didn’t quite happen that way.
Wikipedia’s Israeli history timeline from 1948 (I’m using a standard source. Here’s the link.)
1948: the UN votes to establish the State of Israel. The same day, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq attack. Jordan conquers the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Egypt gets Gaza (when’s the last time you called Egypt a colonial occupier?)
1967: Egypt, Jordan, and Syria attack Israel. Israel wins, conquering Gaza, the Golan Heights, the West Bank, and Sinai.
1973: Egypt and Syria attack Israel on its holiest day of the year. Israel beats them back, but suffers drastic serious casualties.
1979: Israel and Egypt sign a peace treaty in which Israel gives Sinai to Egypt in return for a cessation of violence.
(I’m skipping the details about Lebanon since Gaza is a separate issue.)
1987: First Intifada begins.
1992: Israel and the PLO sign the Oslo Accords giving the PA government of parts of Gaza and the West Bank in return for a recognition of Israel’s existence and stopping terrorism. (The signing of the Accords lead to waves of attack from the Palestinians.)
1999: Camp David Accords– Israel offers Palestine the establishment of a full self governing state. Arafat refuses. Second Intifada begins.
2005: Israel fully withdraws from Gaza.
(2006: Second Lebanon War)
Nov. 2007: Olmert and Abbas hold Annapolis talks aiming to reach a full two-state solution by the end of 2008 (similar to the 1992 discussion 15 years early)
So that’s my study of history on the most basic level. Here’s the research and studying you requested for a fair and full picture. I’m not claiming, as you are, that there’s anything straightforward about it, but I’m not assuming that those who disagree with me are ignorant either. It’s far more complex than that.
Maya
Please consider the death toll comparison on both sides before reaching to a conclusion.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
The Palestinian actions are nothing but symbolic in comparison to massacres perpetuated by Israel if you analyse the stats. You can’t hope you will make someone happy by giving $5 while you have stolen $50000 from him. So giving up Gaza and simultaneously killing children and civilians in other parts of Palestine makes the resistance legitimate.
Coming back to the question, I would prefer to fight against my own country if it is responsible for the deaths and sufferings of millions of people for decades like Israel.
Now my question is: What will you do if you are kicked out of your country and subjected to sufferings and killings Palestinians had undergone in the last 50 years?
Hi Sarfaraz,
Good link from solid sources, thank you.
The death rates are staggering, but they are not for lack of trying. I believe, most unfortunately, that if the militants had better weapons, the death rates would be much higher on the Israeli side. Is that supposed to be a good thing?
Kicked out of my country? I see your point and appreciate the comparison, but Jews lived without a country for the last 2,000 years, so I do understand the scenario. What about the Jews who were kicked out of Arab countries at the same time the Palestinians left what is now Israel (the numbers are equivalent)?
Have you been to or are you from Palestine? If so, I am interested in what you can tell me about what attracts people so much to the land? Is it simply the longing to return home or is there something more innate? Are their songs and stories about Palestine that I could read? What do people talk about and think about when they dream of Palestine? I know that while the Jewish people were in the Diaspora, we had a rich tradition of such things, and I hope to learn more about it from the Palestinian side.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Maya
Maya,
While I don’t fully agree with Sarfaraz’s point, your rebuttal, “but Jews lived without a country for the last 2,000 years,” is simply unfair. There are plenty of peoples of other faiths who have lived without their own country, what entitles the Jews to their own? While I am certainly not against Israel entirely, I find that to be an extremely weak argument.
As to what else Sarfaraz said - frankly, whatever the reason for the Palestinians’ weak weaponry, the fact is, they have caused far less suffering and destruction than Israel. They are militarily weaker, have less funds, and less global support.
The fact is, no matter who is right in the grand scheme of things, what Israel has done this time is downright wrong. Cutting off power to everyone in Gaza - women, children, the weak, the sick, the poor - is simply disgusting.
Jillian
Maya,
Your attempt to provide fair coverage of these events is very appreciated. I don’t hear much of the MSM talking about the collective punishment that Hamas, a terrorist group, is inflicting on Israelis. I don’t hear about the fear, anxiety, and danger that thousands of missiles shot into Israel causes innocent civilians, including children.
Reading some of the above comments makes me realize that nobody will ever convince people who want Israel destroyed that Palestinian terrorist groups are bad, no matter how many innocent Israelis they murder. Jewish history has taught us that you can’t have dialogue with everyone, and you can’t expect words to protect you from people dedicated to your destruction. Israel has a right to defend itself, whether or not people like it.
The “blockade” will stop when Hamas stops targeting civilians. It is ironic that Israel was supplying power to its sworn enemies in the first place.
Great coverage! Thank you.
In Solidarity,
Anti-Racist Blog
The culture in the occupied territories teaches the children that they must give their lives as martyrs - a duty for which they are promised a rich reward in the afterlife. So really, how useful is the 4:1 ratio of Arab to Israeli deaths? And why doesn’t the referenced website make any mention of the use of human shields by the Arabs? After all, it is a practice in which you are attempting to increase casualties on your own side (which is why Amnesty and other human rights organizations routinely slam Hamas for it).
I wonder if the a 4:1 death ratio might be closer to 3:1, 2:1, or even 1:1 when you consider these factors.
Either way, doesn’t anything under 10:1 demonstrate that Israel is using extreme restraint, given how powerful Israel’s weapons are compared to the Arabs?
Maya, you seem to miss the point. For those who want peace in the M.E. , the solution is not complex, it is very simple. Forget the ancient history, it will solve nothing. If the arabs want peace, they must be the first to stop the violence towards Israel, recognize Israel’s right to exists in peace and then they too will have peace and prosperity. If Israel stops defending itself against the arab violence, there will be no Israel.
“but Jews lived without a country for the last 2,000 years”
to add to what jillian said, more importantly, what entitles jews from poland, russia and everywhere to establish a country on palestinian land?
“Are their songs and stories about Palestine that I could read? What do people talk about and think about when they dream of Palestine? I know that while the Jewish people were in the Diaspora, we had a rich tradition of such things,”
this is the type of mindset that is suggestive of this worldly and absurd understanding, that palestinians did not exist before israel. they had no culture or traditions or were representative of any kind of civilization. that they had no dreams, no homeland, no great aspirations.
nevertheless…
it is true at this point, what you say, that pre-1948 thinking will get us no where, however palestinians are simply searching for justice in the void of the mother of all injustices. the occupation that began in 1948 is an ongoing experience, reality and history. nothing, absolutely nothing, has changed. i think it was james joyce who said: “History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake”.
to those suggesting israel should do what its doing in order for palestinians to rise up against hamas. its funny when people insist on democracy just as long as the outcome is in their favor, but that aside, in times like these, people living in despair and poverty will only be pushed more to the right. hamas is the lesser of two evils in such a situation (and i, like yazan, am staunchly anti-hamas).
moreover, if hamas were toppled tomorrow, if homemade rockets stopped flying tomorrow, if no palestinian resisted the occupation of their land tomorrow, if they swallowed the bitter pill and acknowledged israel’s right to exist even if it is on their own land, if they acknowledged the right for every jew in the world the right to “return”…would israel make peace? would it give back the land it took? would it acknowledge the palestinians’ right for return? would it tare down the wall? remove the checkpoints? allow and acknowledge a palestinian state? respect and acknowledge palestinian life?
i think anyone who says “yes” to the aforementioned questions is just kidding themselves.
and to those who are quoting the bible and suggesting its on palestinians to make peace and not israel. first of all, the last time i checked, peace was a two-way road even if the bible says, as you claim, the only way to deal with “us” is by force. second of all, violence against israel will never, ever stop, if israel insists on it’s kung-fu grip of the territories, including land confiscations, the building of illegal settlements, checkpoints, and a wall on more and more palestinian land. israel has, and continues to do all these things on a daily basis, in addition to raiding camps, killing civilians with guns, tanks, jets, missiles, to say nothing of political, economic, ethnic and psychological warfare. every single day.
they do all this, and then they say to the world…look at what the palestinians are doing to us.
the world really has no interest in what happens to the lives of people who are not white. and this doesn’t really matter because no arab is waiting for the international community to come to the rescue.
more importantly, while a lot of this is simply context for the current situation, it is not the immediate trigger. in this particular situation, both hamas and israel have conspired to render this cold dish. the reason the latter has been given so much grief is because even in the darkness, people can tell who has their hand on the trigger right now.
as usual, the people who pay for the politics are palestinian civilians.
Hi Jillian,
My statement that the Jews lived in exile for thousands of years was in no way an argument for the State of Israel’s existence, simply an expression that I empathized with Sarfaraz’s point in that matter. I in no way intended to claim that the Jewish situation was in any way unique in that respect.
As to the question of whether Israel deserves statehood, it’s not one I’m going to bother arguing. I don’t consider it a valid question as it is one that is only asked of Israel and only asked of the Jews.
Jillian, I don’t agree with collective punishment, but it seems very unbalanced to hold Israel completely responsible for the situation in Gaza when Egypt and Gaza have open borders and are supposedly allies. Why must Israel hold full responsibility for this situation?
Furthermore, the PA is hardly a poor state– they just act like it. According to Wikipedia, “Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip receive one of the highest levels of aid in the world.” In fact, $7.6 billion is pledged this year.
Maya
David,
I’m not sure where you got the impression that I disagree with your views (as expressed in your second comment).
If only peace were that simple.
Maya
Thanks very much, Anti-Racist Blog. Your comments and support are much appreciated.
Maya
[...] I am traveling, but will return mid next week to update as usual. In the meantime, you can read my article on Israelis’ reactions to the crisis in Gaza. [...]
Hi,
I really fail to see how you/anyone can express concern for human rights and humanitarian care and compare death tolls in the same breath/post?
If you care about human rights you should care about the value of ALL humans’ rights and realize that any life lost is a source of pain. Do you count your pain?
Talk to the Mothers in Black on both sides of the border and discover that it is NOT a competition and there is no validity in that argument.
Instead we should be looking to the future in search of ways for resolving the issues. That’s how I’d like to see the discussion progress.
The uniqueness of such forums is that we can speak as individuals and we should use that to veer away from politico-speeches that keep the axes grinding.
Dear Nas,
How easy it is to assume the worst of each other.
My question of Palestinian culture was a very real one. I know that Jews have these things as a diaspora culture and am interested in learning more about the Palestinian diaspora culture as well. I think you have mistaken my honest interest for condescension. I am sincerely interested in learning more about Palestinian culture as distinct from other Arab or national groups. If you don’t like the idea of Palestinian diaspora culture, then let me know where I can learn more about Palestinian culture as a separate entity, if you have ideas. I want to learn more.
Listen, so my lens is Judaism and the experience of the Jewish people in exile when we are talking about diaspora issues. When in these comments I ask about the people of Palestine and reference the Jews, I see that it can raise hackles because of the bad blood, but in learning about things, we take what we already understand and try to add, develop, and expand those ideas with other new thoughts. If I put the words Jew and Palestinian or Arab and Israeli together in a sentence, it doesn’t mean that I am raising one and lowering the other. That is my basis of comparison based on what I already know.
In your opinion, can an Israeli and Palestinian state exist simultaneously and securely as neighbors? What do you think would need to happen for that to occur?
Look forward to hearing from you, Nas.
Maya
Maya,
I’ll jump in here again even though you directed your last post at Nas.
Tell me, what is it that you don’t understand about the simplicity of the problem ? Can you not see that it is an arab problem ? We Israelis do not have a problem living side by side with neighboring arabs as long as they are not violent towards us and respect our sovereign right to exist.
I fail to see how cultural differences are worth discussing when looking for a peaceful solution.
Surely you can recognize that there is no grey area in that , it is black and white, STOP THE VIOLENCE !
Maya,
To answer your question, I simply can not for the life of me understand the concept of a “Jewish Nation”, just as much as the concept of an Islamic Nation perplexes me that is, Nations, countries, states [at least, modern, democratic, and humane ones] can not be built upon exclusive concepts like religion, ethnicity, etc…
A democratic state, by definition, is one that is able to accommodate any number of cultures inside of it, and as a part of it. That’s the only real solution that I can actually support. Yes, maybe a palestinian state, and a an Israeli state solution is more popular because of the bitterness that is everywhere, but I truly don’t think this kind of solution is moral, nor sustainable.
Yes Maya, Palestinians have a unique culture of their own, their own folk songs, their own traditional outfits and dances, yes they are real people, their culture is part of the levantine culture, just as much as the levantine jews were part of this culture. And that levantine culture was part of the bigger culture of the mediterranean. I think googling “Palestinian people” or “Palestinian culture” would be a good start, don’t you think? ;)
[...] I wrote yesterday, I am ensconced in a discussion about the crisis in Gaza over at Global Voices Online. I wanted to move the discussion over here because I respect your [...]
“Palestinian diaspora culture”
Maya, it’s not assuming the worst of each other, its coming to expect it. Such as the irony of an Israeli who is, after all these years, willing to learn about a culture he or she helped exile, and a diaspora he or she helped create.
“In your opinion, can an Israeli and Palestinian state exist simultaneously and securely as neighbors? What do you think would need to happen for that to occur?”
The answers to both those questions lie in the 5th to last paragraph of my first comment which starts with the sentence “and to those who are quoting”.
David:
“We Israelis do not have a problem living side by side with neighboring arabs as long as they are not violent towards us and respect our sovereign right to exist.”
yeah, like i said, if the palestinian resistance were to die tomorrow, it is highly unlikely that your vision of a peaceful lovey-dovey Israel would emerge. settlements would not disappear. stolen land, would not be returned. walls would not be torn down. and checkpoints would not be removed.
“I fail to see how cultural differences are worth discussing when looking for a peaceful solution.”
I’m not discussing cultural differences. I was pointing out to Maya that Palestinians do actually have one! They are not an entity created when zionists showed up on the scene.
“Surely you can recognize that there is no grey area in that , it is black and white, STOP THE VIOLENCE ”
I agree with you 100%!
Stop the Israeli occupation! Stop the daily Israeli acts of violence! And with that an end to the resistance and its own violent ways will emerge.
Yazan, a “Jewish nation” is a combination of two ideas that aren’t commonly joined (religion and nation). But that it is not common is not a reason for criticism. It works for us, and since we have a state founded as a homeland for the Jewish nation, if you’re not a citizen of it what really have you to say about it? Are you bothered that Saudi Arabia and Japan have even more exclusive standards than Israel does?
Also, many states consider themselves democratic, not least of which is the PA. They always speak of Hamas being the result of democratic choice. Well, if that’s so, then so is the democratic choice of Israelis to live in a Jewish state. But only Israel is worthy of dismantlement. Why is Israel under special scrutiny?
Such scrutiny is not meant for Iraq, which considers the Koran a reference document for their constitution, or Japan, where non-ethnic Japanese find it difficult to become citizens, or in Denmark which is probably more democratic than what most people consider the paradigm of democracy (the US), where the members of local cities vote on the citizenship rights of newcomers, or the US because it is not as optimally democratic than Denmark - there are a lot of styles of democracy; in Israel we have just one of them.
And, Jewish identity and religion have been separate things for at least 200 years - yet, we see ourselves as a nation, though many of us don’t practice the religion at all (or any other religion). Our religion is part of our nationality, not all of it - we don’t stop becoming nationally Jewish when we stop being religiously Jewish. Just like there are athiests who are Americans but don’t stop being athiests even though they use currency with the words “In G-d We Trust” on it. Not everybody buys into everything, but that’s no reason to throw the whole thing away, right? And that there are athiests, is that a reason to say that America is not a “religious” nation?
People who can’t understand our way should consider it a sign of their toleration for diversity, that they’d be able to tolerate something even if they themselves can’t understand it or agree with it. I don’t think that Jews or Israel deserve less of that benefit from others than they demand from us.
Quoting Nas:
“I’m not discussing cultural differences. I was pointing out to Maya that Palestinians do actually have one! They are not an entity created when zionists showed up on the scene.”
Hmmm…
Did a distinct “Palestinian culture” arise before or after the advent of Zionism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#Culture shows a good history of Palestinian culture, and documents an explosion of distinctly Palestinian poetry, art and literature occurring in the 1940s and 1950s. Prior to that there is virtually nothing to set Palestinian culture apart from Arab culture. It’s true that Palestinians had a unique style of dress prior to the 20th century, but that’s about it. Everything else (art, music, pottery) was indistinguishable from the Arab culture which dominated the region.
I’d say only one dominant non-Arab culture of the levant survived the past 2000 years and that is Judaism.
Maya,
I think some of you are living in the fantasy rather than reality. If everyone starts occupying lands because they are kicked out thousands of years back then the whole world will cease to exist.
Some of you are blaming Hamas and its resistance. My question is there was no Hamas even 20 years back from now. No rockets were fired to Israels then nor were there any suicide bombers. Why did Israel continued its oppression against the millions of Palestinians rather than handing back the occupied land?
I am from Asia so I can’t tell you much about the cultural aspects of Palestine. However, I strongly believe in every event that occurs has a cause. Here we fail to understand which one is the cause and which one is the effect. The resistance is the effect of years of occupation, killings of innocents including children and daily humiliation of Palestinians. There were no resistance before occupation by Israelis. Since occupation is the cause, we should talk about stopping it first to get rid of the effects (resistance) it caused.
Sarfaraz
Sarfaraz, the PLO was established 3 years before the “occupation”. And, when peace negotiations are an alternative, as they’ve been since Oslo, there is NO justification for what you call “resistance”, especially the shooting of missiles from PLO controlled areas into civilian areas as Hamas permits. THe only legitimate way to settle differences is at the negotiating table, and the so called “resistance” has served no cause except for those who hope there will never be a negotiated peace settlement, because they believe the only acceptable solution is the erasure of Israel.
Sarfaraz:
The American Indian is a good example of what happens when cultures cross. We in America have a rich heritage, but we also remember to some extent the American Indian and give them a place and somewhat special privileges in some situations. It works well for the most part. What is the difference in this situation is the “MuleHeadedness” of those that will insist that they have everything at the exclusion of others, up to the point that they say they cannot exist. Anyone with that viewpoint is unnegotiable and will decline and cannot have a place in a peaceful solution.
“Prior to that there is virtually nothing to set Palestinian culture apart from Arab culture.”
uhem…Palestinians are Arabs so yeah, it’s kind of likely that the cultures are similar. and of course there was an explosion after the 40’s! it’s called the resistance movement, a culture arising directly due to an exiling of a people and an occupation of a people. no one would know who mahmoud darwish or naji al-ali if it wasn’t for their art stemming from the occupation, in the same way no one would know langston hughes had it not been for african-american slavery.
as for the rest of your argument. this kind of thinking moves us closer to that underlying zionist philosophical principle that states: if a Palestinian falls in a forest, he only makes a sound if a Zionist is around to hear it.
otherwise…”he never existed”
oh, and “the forest was empty when we got here”
What occupation ?
The arab land that is claimed to be occupied by Israel is occupied by the country that won the war that was started by the country that lost the war that it started. That is not occupation, that is a good result by a good army ! The arabs or whatever they call themselves that live in Israel on land that they claim to be occupied by Israel should pick up their belongings and leave to the countries of their origin. There they will live on unoccupied land for as long as they do not attack Israel but should they decide again to attack Israel, they may have to relocate again from occupied land. I would suggest that they move as far away as Iran, I doubt that Israel would ever consider occupying that country.
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“That is not occupation, that is a good result by a good army ! ”
lol, and i was wondering how this “dialog” was going to end. thanks for driving the nail into the coffin and giving me a good laugh simultaneously.
quite the feat.
Naz, it was an underlying principle in early Zionism that Palestine represented a land without a people, I think that was what you were referring to with that whole “Palestinian falling in the forest” thing. Where I think we differ (and you have not refuted my earlier claim) is that I contend that Palestine really WAS a land without a people. You cannot prove that there was a distinct Palestinian culture there prior to the formation of modern Israel, so I think I win this argument.
Arabs last controlled Palestine in 1250. You may claim that the Jews are occupying Arab land, but how can that be true if it hasn’t been Arab land in nearly 800 years?
David,
I got my answer through what you said. The truth why Israel did not end its occupation till now is because they do not think there is any occupation. All the commitments in Oslo or in Anapolis were just fake. All the killings and sufferings you caused for the last 50 years are legitimate for you. That is why I think if hamas is a terrorist group then Israel is the number-1 terrorist state of the world because their army and people considers killings and massacres to be “a good result by a good army”.
Mac (and others),
Do you really think you win? What do you imagine you’ve won?
Regardless of your ideology, Naz’s or mine, I do NOT agree with your approach to a discussion.
What is the purpose of interacting online– is it just to see our words in print?
An online community should be the perfect place to start treating others as individuals who deserve our respect. In my opinion, to tell Palestinians that they were non-existent before Israel is the same as saying there were no Israelis, only Jews. So? We all have the right and freedom to define ourselves. To respect the Other is to respect the name he calls himself.
And finally, to the idea of respecting the Other, here’s a quote from Wikipedia’s summary of Martin Buber’s “I and Thou”: A person sitting next to a complete stranger on a park bench [or Forum] may enter into an “I-Thou” relationship with the stranger merely by beginning to think positively about people in general. The stranger is a person as well, and gets instantaneously drawn into a mental or spiritual relationship with the person whose positive thoughts necessarily include the stranger as a member of the set of persons about whom positive thoughts are directed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_and_Thou
Sarafaz, As usual the criminals see themselves as the victims, nothing new.
My Bedouin friends outnumber my Jewish ones. By nature, I respect the individuality of everyone I meet. Any friendship that develops is by mutual consent and effort.
When the USA bombed Gadaffi, my Gazan work crew saved my life by hiding me from the other Arabs on site. When two terrorists opened fire on King George Street, I hit the deck with every other unarmed Jew in the vicinity.
The perpetual war between Israelis and Palestinians only proves that we are not any better [or worse] than any other battling groups on the planet.
The journey to peace starts when one person discovers his humanity and begins to look for that quality in another human being.
In every society the good people vastly outnumber the evil ones. Unfortunately, the evil-doers are much more organized and better able to pursue their selfish desires.
David,
I think you already made it clear which side is the criminal by considering killings and massacres to be “a good result by a good army”.
Wrong, the criminals are the arabs that fire rockets daily at innocent people in Israel, not the army that only targets the criminals who hide behind women’s dresses and children’s kindergartens.
Dear Readers,
Regarding my request for help in learning more about Palestinian culture, I am familiar with the usual sources such as Google (thanks for that vote of confidence) and Wikipedia. I was looking for something a little further off the beaten path, perhaps a good site you had happened across or discovered– but even this, a question I consider rather innocuous as the discussion goes– was too controversial to answer civilly.
Listen, why read Global Voices if you don’t want to hear the perspectives’ of others? That’s why we’re all here. I had hoped we would be able to discuss this with more mutual respect for each other, but I see we are beyond that point. To criticize someone else’s honest search for knowledge about your own culture by saying they are ignorant, an occupier, and implying they don’t have even the most basic knowledge of the internet is such a dead end.
Is that really the best we can do to support each other?
I’m disappointed.
Maya
Maya,
Your disappointment does not surprise me, you are searching for something that does not exist.
Perhaps you should firstly consider the definition of your quest, by definition you will not find a culture for something that has no foundation or history. “Palestinian”, what’s that , neither a state nor a history of a state nor a race nor a government so what is it. When you find the answer, look for the culture.
Many people consider the movement to establish the state of Palestine to be a parallel social movement to Zionism. This “Palestinian” movement, born in the 1960’s, was and is nothing more than an Arab strategy to bring about Israel’s destruction. All of this is an offshoot of the original Arab campaign to prevent the creation of the Jewish state in the first place.
Hence the tone of defensiveness.
I might add, the participants of this Palestinian experiment still wholeheartedly endorse the complete and total destruction of Israel. It is probably for that reason that I am most offended by a serious discussion around Palestinian culture. Why give validity to a “culture” that was only invented for the purpose of killing more Jews? It is just as sickening to hear as these debates on Israel’s right to exist, and whether or not 6 million Jews died in the holocaust.
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