Cheers

Has anyone here heard of the experiment where the subject is instructed by a person in uniform to ask someone questions through an intercom thinking the other person is next door and to press a button whenever the other person gives a small answer. Then he supposedly electroshock the other person – fist with a small voltage- and then turning it up every time a wrong answer is given. Almost all subjects turn the voltage up to deadly levels that would kill the other person. The other person is somewhere safe and even though he screams and pretends to be in serious pain, most subjects just go on because they were isntsucted so by the person in uniform (usualy a doctor’s shirt).

The moral of this experiment is that distancing ourselves from the people around us makes us do horrible things if instructed so by a person we trust(the politicians). The solution: Love and respect the people around you. What would happen if greece said: alright, you can be called macedonia. Or if fyrom said, ok greece, we this is getting silly. We’ll call this place vardarska aagin. Wouldn’t the bond we would createbring us more benefits than this 15 year arguement?

I think I like your approach you seem to be getting closer to the cheese . .
Like you, I wouldn’t trust anyone’s history that has been purposely altered but I would certainly trust any history that has been both, archeologically and scientifically established and registered.
I also like the idea of “feeling at home”, when I’m invited that is and I promise that I will never “try to make my self at home” on my own or whenever I feel like it.

I am sure the governments in greece haven’t been 100% fair. In fact I heve never heard of any government ever being 100% fair. Politics is a very dirty and greedy game. I think the slavs who settled in Greek macedonia around the 6-7th century AD have the right to call themselves macedonians, the same way as a child born of greek and german parants can be called greek or german or both, depending on where it is born.
I don’t trust either side of history. Just the fact that there isn’t one balkan history makes me skeptical. Also i don’t think this issue can be resolved by writting on the internet. And surely it cannot be resolved if we allow hotheads from both sides to shout and fanaticise the rest. I’m not saying gag them but the moderates from both sides must team up to avoid the worst. I’m sure history will reward us if we succeed.
My suggestion is that both countries should create independent organisations obaying common laws stated in their strategic aims. Let me make this a bit more clear. Carbon copy independent organisations that promote greek culture in skopje(i will call you half the time macedonia and the other half skophie or fyrom to make both sides happy) and macedonian culture in greece. This could include artist collaborations, cuisine etc. Also these organisations should focus on the common inheritage we have. Our people have lived together for thousant of years, I’m sure we can find a lot in common. These organisations should also serve as watchdogs for human rights for both sides and put equal pressure on both governments to make greek feel like home in macedonia and macedonians to feel like home in greece.
This ‘digestion’ mechanism might help us hush extremists and allow both our people to grow peacefully. I think there is so much that we don’t know about each other and it is very bad – potentialy dangerous – if we only find things out about each other through our disputes.

If it is possible I would like to ask the moderators of this conversation to allow (only) Vlatko to view my email address.

the statements of different political officers of FYROM confirm the truth.

a. The former President of The FYROM, Kiro Gligorov said: “;We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century … we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians” (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35).

b. Also, Mr Gligorov declared: “We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That’s who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia …; Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century” (Toronto Star, March 15, 1992).

c. On 22 January 1999, Ambassador of the FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. In answering questions at the end of her speech Mrs. Acevshka said: “We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great …; Greece is Macedonia’;s second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz.” In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that “we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language.”;

d. On 24 February 1999, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM’S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, “We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.” He also commented, “;There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country.”

e. Moreover, the Foreign Minister of the FYROM, Slobodan Casule, in an interview to Utrinski Vesnik of Skopje on December 29, 2001, said that he mentioned to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria, Solomon Pasi, that they “belong to the same Slav people.”;

US Congresswoman and Representative Carolyn Maloney has intervened in the FYROM issue with a speech in the House of Representatives, saying it was a matter of exceptional importance for her, as the founder and co-president of the Parliamentary Group for Greek Issues. “All the historic and archaeological data prove that the ancient Macedons were Greeks,” she pointed out. Macedonia is a Greek name that has defined the northern region of Greece for over 2,500 years.”

From our point of view, we have:
-significant investments in Skopje
-no claims(Milosevic is said to have proposed an invasion in 1993)
-no real animosity except a reaction to fyrom’s propaganda
-a constructive and realistic position that says ” Let’s find a solution that will recognize that both people in FYROM and in greek Macedonia are “Macedonians”, but different. So, something like “Slavoalbanian Macedonians” and “Greek Macedonians”, “Upper Macedonians”, Northwestern Macedonia and so on would be
acceptable names that would accurately represent the situation: Namely that we have two DIFFERENT populations, each of which lives in a PART of the geographical area.

As for makedonec, there was a war between the comitadji and greek macedonians 100 years ago and we also have many stories and accounts of attrocities by the comitadji. Plus there are also many greek macedonians who had to leave their homes in Bulgaria or South Serbia either as a part of a population exchange or by more forcible means and also many that were not that lucky.
Do you want to go back 100 years and refight that war?

I’m a (Greek) Macedonian from both (Greek) Macedonian father and mother, who in turn are from (Greek) Macedonian parents. All of these people speak Greek and don’t know any slavic words or expressions. I and they come from (greek) macedonian villages and they are not descendants of any greek refugees. Elephant part I closed.

I’m quite tall (1.90m), have light-coloured skin and blue eyes. My brother is like me, except that he’s blond. Almost all my cousins share the same characteristics. Elephant part II closed.

And now the elephant explanation about me:

Although I feel Greek I’m not actually a real one. I come from the ancient Macedonians (coz I’m not short and dark like Ethiopian Greeks) who spoke the macedonian language but wrote only in Greek; these guys hated Greeks (and that’s why they spread greek civilization to the end of the known world), so when Slavs came, they fell in love with them, they became a new nation and together they hated Greeks. Somehow, some day all my ancestors decided that Greeks are better, they betrayed their identity and so only my genes remind me now that I’m a Macedonian in origin and not a tall Greek.

The elephant conclusion: I’m a mislead Macedonian (in origin) who sadly feels Greek.

And the miracle is… that WITH OR WITHOUT that fairy tale which happens to be the official history taught to Slav Macedonian students, what I feel is exactly the same: I’m a Greek Macedonian. I can’t deny either of the two.

The Macedonian identity belongs to me also. No country can monopolize it.

PS1: It seems you don’t know many Greeks. Macedonians are much taller and lighter-skinned than those of Southern Greece. Btw, Makedon means ‘tall man’, just as mikos or makros mean ‘length’ and ‘great distance’ in modern greek.

PS2: My Lebanese friend, Antonio, is tall with green eyes (as lots of Lebanese). Is he Slav or German?

I know many Greeks from a Greek mother and a Greek father. All of them don’t look any different than a Lebanese or a Palestine or from somewhere around there. Their ancestors must have emigrated from the Middle East/Africa.

Please note that Lebanese and Palestinian are good people and you should be proud of being a Greek with Lebanese or Palestinian ancestral background.

William from onedroprule.org states the following:

“…Well, studies do indeed show an ancient movement (perhaps 20kya) out of East Africa, carrying with it descendants of Y-chromosome E3b. In Greece, a fairly large percentage (I believe 25% or so) of the population carry a descendant of this marker (mainly a local variant of E-M78). Greeks have more of these markers than other Europeans. Another sub-Saharan Y marker found in Greece is A. There is also East African mtDNA M1 in Greece. Greeks have the Benin strain of HbS, and have HLA markers peculiar to Ethiopians (Oromo, etc.) and some West Africans (Fulani, etc.). Greeks are also the only Europeans bearing cystic fibrosis mutations typical of Black Africans.”