Macedonia, Greece: FYROM
Macedonia
Edward Lucas shares his piece on Greece's problems with a neighboring country also known as FYROM.
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Edward Lucas shares his piece on Greece's problems with a neighboring country also known as FYROM.
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Based on the Wikipedia list of countries, details.
Paul,
You make a cogent argument insofar as the cultural legacy of Macedonia and its association with Hellenism.
Whereas I have lost patience in going to such detail (have done so in countless posts), I am glad you have found the time to do so yourself. You express by and large what I felt about Filip’s posts.
The only point I would like to respectfully make is that the Albanian population should enjoy the same respect and privileges as any other ethnic grouping. Quite frankly, I do not understand the implied suggestion that Christians should rally together… Against whom? Muslims? I hope there is nothing sinister implied as we are all human beings… This is all.
Thanks again.
Anonymous Hellene wrote:
The only point I would like to respectfully make is that the Albanian population should enjoy the same respect and privileges as any other ethnic grouping.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes I agree that of course they should.
but that does not mean the right to dismember a country.
I do NOT think FYROM should be carved up unless it was a division like the the way czechoslavakia broke up. Agreed on by the major ethnic groups involved in a fair manner.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Quite frankly, I do not understand the implied suggestion that Christians should rally together… Against whom? Muslims? I hope there is nothing sinister implied as we are all human beings… This is all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Militant Islam has a long term goal of converting the world by force if necessary. I of course realize that there are many moderate muslims do not share this view. But my point was maybe not stated properly.
The point is that they, the FYROMians claim to be Christians so they should act that way, with Christian brotherly love towards Greeks and Greece rather than 1) bearing false witness against their neighbor 2) hating their neighbor in their heart (thats = to being a murdered according to Christ).
Instead they are following brainwashing of the NWO/communist mindset and acting as tools of war mongers.
More to the point…what I am trying to say:
Stop your irredentism because your intense nationalism will only inspire Albanians to do a Kosovo part II against you. Karma is a *itch
Christians should rally together not necessarily against Muslims. But against evil agendas and promoting war to make the weapons suppliers and NWO richer and more powerful and closer to their goal of one world govt.
Paul,
Whereas I believe militant Muslims and extreme Christians are two sides of the same coin (purges, crusades, etc), I get your point and thank you for your clarification.
We do agree.
We’ll be better placed in the coming weeks/months to see if the government in Skopje is really interested to talk peace and progress.
If this intransigence were to continue, I would hope Greece apply a range of considered measures that send an unambiguous and consistent message to our northern neighbour – Also, it may be more worthwhile for Greek businesses to reduce somewhat (not eliminate!) their heavy exposure in the FYROM.
Reduced exposure in the FYROM economy should enhance Greece’s political options in its bilateral relations by removing the ‘stranglehold’ of the Skopje government in its negotiations with Greece … The implicit threat to Greece being, “if you harm our economy, you run the risk of harming your very own…”
Greece should not have channelled so much of its foreign investment in the FYROM without ensuring a qui-pro-quo resolution of outstanding differences in the process. In fact, foreign investment could have been an incentive for the FYROM to realign its interests with those of its southern neighbour (Greece).
This is just a personal thought… I understand things are not quite as simple as suggested here.
Anonymous Hellene.
How very nice of you to give us suggestions for the future.
Bloody hell,with “friends” like you with such honest intentions,christian brotherly love and care,who needs enemies?
Lucky us we have you!Real mates.
Manta,
I have realised that no matter how hard we try to explain oursleves to them the more hard-headed they become. Nothing can convince Greeks who don’t want to listen. They base all of their absurd arguments on past history and that “Macedonia has territorial ambitions” etc. It is no use!
They have one goal and that is to convince the world that they are the original/ancient settlers of the area and solely have the right to call themselves Macedonians. The Modern Greeks don’t give a damn about any of the other groups, be it other people who mixed with the Macedonians during the last two thousand years or Macedonians who were kicked out during the Civil War or remained and have the courage to stand up to them as Macedonians.
I now truly believe my grandfather and father’s very words, ie what they and their families went through prior to and after the Civil War. I am not going to describe their hardships except to say I fully understand what Macedonian people like Makedonec are trying to say.
As I stated previously I have Greek friends, I don’t hate them. I respect them for they are and expect them to respect me equally for what I am. Unfortunately some Greeks do and some don’t. The ones who do have realised that we Macedonians are not as bad and threatening as they believed previously.
Paul,
I have been reminded of a scene in the Hollywood movie “My Big Fat Greek Wedding”… specifically, the scene were a character named “Gus” (the father of the Greek bride) says there’s two types of people:
1) Those who are Greek; and
2) Those who want to be Greek
Now, of course, we both now this is an exaggeration aiming to highlight Greeks’ personal pride in their historical/cultural legacy and to stir some laughter along the way… There is no doubt about this.
However, given the situation where a different race of people have so unanimously agreed to immerse themselves in Greek culture (usurp for a better word), at the expense of their very own, it makes you wonder!
On the one hand I take pride knowing other people want to share in my country’s history. On the other it saddens me that these same people are so happy to disown their very own culture which itself is splendid and is part of the largest ethnic race of people in the whole of Europe (the Slavic population).
Whatever the situation, I harbour no ill feelings or resentment untoward these people. I think our similarities as human beings are much stronger than any differences or political opportunism that may exist.
Thank you for your wisdom and for giving us the benefit of your historical knowledge. Do not be disheartened if some just do not want to listen… You see, it is no reflection on you or me, rather the result of the ‘communist brain-washing’ you alluded to in your previous post – That is all.
Regards
Anonymous Hellene
(Μένω Σύδνεϋ, – καταγ. Λακωνία).
Filip wrote:
They have one goal and that is to convince the world that they are the original/ancient settlers of the area and solely have the right to call themselves Macedonians.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1) Yes we do believe we are related to them..and most of us are not naive to think that no other peoples may have mixed in to some degree but YES we do believe these ancient Macedonians were ancient Greeks and that modern Greeks are connected genetically to the ancient Greeks.
2) More importantly NO NO NO my friend that is your side. Read that sentence once more. Who is it that wants an unqualified name to monopolize the name Macedonia?????
Lets say for the sake of “argument” that the ancient macedonians mixed in with (what I believe to be the rest of the Greeks as I believe they were Greek ) and then also mixed in with later slavs. So the best we can say is that we are both Macedonians. but that can cause confusion and while I will state again not all people in your country harbor irredentist visions..enough do to possibly be a problem for us at worst at best it causes confusion and acts as an attempt to rob us of our cultural legacy.
*Filip wrote:
They base all of their absurd arguments on past history and that “Macedonia has territorial ambitions” etc. It is no use!
>>>>>>>
Are you telling us that there are not a significant element that has territorial ambitions against Greece.
YOU want to monopolize the name and the irredentist plans I am referring to are stated on various Slavic Macedonian extermist websites and students in your classroom see a map of greater macedonia over their chalkboards. we even see on Youtube that some of your students claim that your state should end in Larissa in Thessaly and other places in Greece
You never answer the question:
So sorry to confuse you with the facts.
You simply state things and twist what others say and talk about being offended etc. But never answer any legitimate questions.
1) What religion, culture and language did the anceient macedonians spread????????????
(the answer is Greek…again I point to the fact that Greek was the most popular language because of this ancient conquest and this was the reason it was used for the new testament).
2) Do you dispute that the Ancient Macedonians (Alexander the Great and his people and army) spread Greek Culture and language?
NOTE: Greece has compromised and said that a name with the word Macedonia for your ethnicity and state is fine. but not just Macedonia. Because that robs us of at being at least equally Macedonians esp since to us and non-Fyrom historians agree and other evidences I pointed out to that they were Greek.
3) The fact is that students in your schools interviewed by a Greek reporter ( see youtube) made those irredentist claims. so what do you say about that???
Would you take it light heartedly if Serbian Bulgarian or Albanian school children were being taught about how areas of your country belong to them??
You completely missed my point about hypehnated-Americans etc.
American is a nationality. Irish-American is the ethnic background.
in the name of peace and friendship Greece and Greeks are compromnising but YOU want to monopolize the name and the irredentist plans I am referring to are stated on various Slavic Macedonian extermist websites and students in your classroom see a map of greater macedonia over their chalkboards. we even see on Youtube that some of your students claim that your state should end in Larissa in Thessaly and other places in Greece.
So my point was that we are compromising from our original stand (Macedonia and Macedonian can only mean Greek/Greece) and Investing in your country, etc.
ANSWER ME THIS QUESTION:
What do you say about the fact that former leaders of your country explicitly say that “we are slavs” and have no relation to the ancient macedonians????????
?????????????????
I do not think you are reading my post but rather twisting them you want to believe what you want.
Manta,
In what way are Greeks or Greece being unfriendly to you..by investing in your country? hosting students from your country in Greece’s universities? Oh yes I know because we just don’t hand over our province to you and object to the monopolization of the name and we claim ancient Macedonia as Greek..How absurd of us..esp since the Ancient Near East spoke Slavic Macedonian and NOT Greek..NOT!, Again even if we buy your arguments that the ancient macedonians were not a Greek tribe they sure as hell adopted themsevles into it to be a part of it why else would they have used and spread Greek culture.
Even Filip admits its been about 60 years the name Macedonia was used for your country then state of ugoslavia. It was called variously South Serbia or Vardarska.
You also stated:
The Modern Greeks don’t give a damn about any of the other groups, be it other people who mixed with the Macedonians during the last two thousand years or Macedonians who were kicked out during the Civil War or remained and have the courage to stand up to them as Macedonians.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And then later you say you have friends that are Greek,…isn’t this a countradiction. You expose yourself. Modern Greeks are Africans Modern Greeks are racists…blah blah blah DO YOU CARE ABOUT OTHER ETHNIC GROUPS… or people??
My conclusion is that a greater number of the slavic people of your country hold to a very gross anti-Greek view than I expected.
Your emnity towards us will only bring evil to you. and not necessarily from us. Look at your neighbor Kosovo.
Paul is sounding like one of the typical Greek hypocrites who make up rules as they go.
Have you the sole right to claim the Macedonian land/country/nationality/name based on history, but people who have lived there just as long haven’t? No you don’t.
You can think that based on “your historical beliefs” only Modern Greeks can only call themselves Macedonian -yet Modern Greeks who aren’t related to the ancient Americans, Canadians or Australians can call themselves Americans, Candadian or Australians etc. This is how a typical Greek hypocrite bends the rules as they go to suit their arguments.
There are many Greeks who still don’t accept the fact that Macedonians, ie. non-Greek people have lived and still live in the area just as long if not longer than them in Macedonia. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are part of the “Hellenised” people group who don’t have anything more important to do except to prove that Alexander the Great allegedly spread Greek?? culture around the world and everyone should believe that the Macedonians were Greeks!!!????. I am sorry to say but we disagree with you. Everyone would have called him Alexander the Great from Greece not from Macedonia – Zorba the Greek is a good example.
You have to get it through your thick skulls that you don’t solely own the word or nationality of “Macedonia”. I am Macedonian and you or no one can’t take that away from me.
As I stated previously we have called our region “Republic of Macedonia” since the WWII. It was called Macedonia before that also. Let me remind you prior to the Balkan Wars it was part of the Ottoman Empire before it was divided by Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria. Greece could have called their part Macedonia but they didn’t – they called it Northern Greece. Paul, don’t you accuse me twisting your posts as it is you who twists mine.
Greece had a firm stand on the word “Macedonia”. It insisted on my country coming up with any name of without the word “Macedonia”, ie until they realised the rest of the world wouldn’t go along with it.
One of our former leaders may have stated that “we are slavs” but don’t go around trying to base your facts on this. There is proof that the Modern Greeks are not genetically related to the Ancient Greeks either. “Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the “older” Mediterranenan substratum and “Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.” This quote can be found on many websites that aren’t written or funded by Macedonians. Who knows people in Greece today who have relatives with “blond” hair and blue and green eyes may non-Greek with Slav ancestors. Everything is possible.
Greece’s excuse that the Macedonian people have territorial ambitions against Greece. Please give us a break. As stated by Anynomous Hellene “Greece just simply cannot allow a nation of 2 million people dictate terms and usurp??? its own identity.” That says it all, how can a country as small as that occupy Greece. If they are both members of NATO then how can one country attack the other if they are on the same side? If they are both in EU what economic benefit would one country have if it attacks another? No benefit. Greece’s argument is absurd.
Paul is referring to extremist Macedonian websites again. I can find an equal number or even more extremist Greek websites that are racist just about anyone who isn’t Greek and continually make false claims. Don’t use this as an argument.
When it comes to friendship it is the Greeks who need to be taught a lesson. Out of their neighbours, number one country they get along with. No one would invest in Macedonia for the benefit of the Macedonians only, especially someone from Greece. Lets face it the Greek companies have invested because they have put politics aside and invested where there is a potential of making a profit. The Macedonians trust the Greeks so much as they have allowed them to invest even in utilities, energy, banking, telecommunications etc. Hypothetically speaking, would the same be said for a Macedonian wishing to invest in Greece? The Greek answer would be that the Macedonian has territorial ambitions and based on this it will not be allowed.
What is happening in Kosovo has to some extent already happened in parts of today’s Greece.
Dear readers,
Filip wrote:
[ Have you the sole right to claim the Macedonian land/country/nationality/name based on history, but people who have lived there just as long haven’t? No you don’t ]
My response:
Filip you are missing the point that was cogently put to you by Paul and me in earlier posts, namely that the demand of your state to be called ‘Republic of Macedonia’ is, in fact, an act of monopolosing the base name “Macedonia” (and all that comes with it) with your republic. As has been put to you one more than one occassion, Greece is willing reach a mutually aggreeable compromise over the name issue where your republic can use the term “Macedonia” in a geographical context (this is a considerable compromise considering the inalienable association of the term, culture, and history of Macedonia with Greekness thoughout the Ages…).
Filip wrote:
[You can think that based on “your historical beliefs” only Modern Greeks can only call themselves Macedonian -yet Modern Greeks who aren’t related to the ancient Americans, Canadians or Australians can call themselves Americans, Candadian or Australians etc. This is how a typical Greek hypocrite bends the rules as they go to suit their arguments.]
My response:
Filip are you inadvertently making a concession here that you are not related to the Ancient Macedonias? Your comment above is lacking in logical substance. The USA, Canada, Australia, and similar countries are relatively young as far as human history is concerned and largely the product of European colonial settlement and conquest (notwithstanding indigenous peoples). Furthermore, these countries have multiculturism or assimilation as the basis for their developing cultures which is a microcosm of the world at large. Therefore, there is nothing absurd with someone claiming to be Canadian or Australian one the one hand, yet be a national of another country or at least have a parent born in another country. For instance, Queen Elizabeth is the Head of State in Canada and Australia, yet also the Head of State of the United Kingdom. As for modern Greeks claiming to be the only Macedonians, well this would be true to the extent that these Greeks have some family connection with Macedonia. Nevertheless, these Macedonians in question are Greek nationals or nationals of other countries due to immigration (not Macedonian nationals). Likewise, if you have some connection to the historical region of Macedonia and want to acknowldge this, you are very welcome. In this instance, you would be a national of any country in the world except that which wishes to monopolise the name “Macedonia” for itself… know what I mean? Hence, this argument lends weight for a composite name proposal for your country that truly reflects your compatriots’ racial origin. Ordinarily, one would propose “Slav-Macedonia” however even this would fall short of recognising a sizeable portion of your Albanian -in origin- compatriots. It is up to your politicians to identify a more opportune name; clearly this is out of the scope of my rebuttle.
Filip wrote
[There are many Greeks who still don’t accept the fact that Macedonians, ie. non-Greek people have lived and still live in the area just as long if not longer than them in Macedonia. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are part of the “Hellenised” people group who don’t have anything more important to do except to prove that Alexander the Great allegedly spread Greek?? culture around the world and everyone should believe that the Macedonians were Greeks!!!????. I am sorry to say but we disagree with you. Everyone would have called him Alexander the Great from Greece not from Macedonia - Zorba the Greek is a good example.]
My response:
I do not know where you are going with this statement. It seems an emotional outburst more rather than anything substantive. As for the conquests of Alexander the Great and the Hellenic Age (Greek Age) that his death spawned, well this has been made clear to you by Paul and is actually a known fact in human history. Please google “Hellenistic Age” and follow any respectable link of your choice…
Filip wrote:
[You have to get it through your thick skulls that you don’t solely own the word or nationality of “Macedonia”. I am Macedonian and you or no one can’t take that away from me]
My response:
Please refer to my first very first response above. Greeks at large do not wish to take away from you any nationality that you believe to be rightfully yours. Greeks at large simply wish to protect what they righfully believe to be their culture and protect their territorial sovereignty from dangers that are actual or potential. No profanities please!
Filip wrote:
[As I stated previously we have called our region “Republic of Macedonia” since the WWII. It was called Macedonia before that also. Let me remind you prior to the Balkan Wars it was part of the Ottoman Empire before it was divided by Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria. Greece could have called their part Macedonia but they didn’t - they called it Northern Greece. Paul, don’t you accuse me twisting your posts as it is you who twists mine.]
My response:
Filip you are referring to a broad general area that was once part of Ancient Macedonia yet has seen infultrations of people and changes of borders through time… The bulwark of Ancient Macedonia is found in modern day Greece and is home to almost all of the sacred sites associated with Greek-speaking Macedonian notables of the ancient era. Macedonia has ALWAYS been a point of reference by the Greek state and Greek people insofar as the term has represented Greece’s norther frontier (a Greek province of the same name) since the area was reunited with Hellenism (other Greek peoples in a unified Greek state) at the beginning of the 20th century. “Northern Greece” is simply a geographical -not cultural or historical- reference broadly referring to the Greek provinces of Macedonia and Thrace (Paul has made a clear and illustrative distinction of these previously).
Filip wrote:
[Greece had a firm stand on the word “Macedonia”. It insisted on my country coming up with any name of without the word “Macedonia”, ie until they realised the rest of the world wouldn’t go along with it.]
My response:
You are right about this! And, for a brief point in time your elected politicians were going to sign off on this before a certain country in the world decided to come and meddle in our bilateral affairs as it has and continues to do around the world in order to perpetuate its hegemony. For most Greeks (me included!), Macedonia is an inalienable aspect of Greek identity through the Ages and the concesus view is that modern Greeks should have exclusive reign over it – given the name predates Slavic settlement to the region! This concensus view was at its strongest at a time where politicians and extremists nationals in your state were appropriating the Ancient Macedonian symbol (a Greek symbol!) as their own – reference to the Sun of Vergina. At the same time, there were -as there continues to be- maps of the Balkans circulated where a vast territory of Greece (coincidentally the Greek province of Maceodnia) represented as an autonomous state with cities and towns written in Cyrillic (insinuating a great independent republic of Macedonia). As some of your politicians took steps to reduce the tensions -albet belatedly- such as abandoning Greek symbols and willing to enter negotiations for a mutually acceptable name; Greece also took steps to assist in the warming of relations. Greece’s steps were many more indeed, though there is no point to spell them all here.
Filip wrote:
[One of our former leaders may have stated that “we are slavs” but don’t go around trying to base your facts on this. There is proof that the Modern Greeks are not genetically related to the Ancient Greeks either. “Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the “older” Mediterranenan substratum and “Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.” This quote can be found on many websites that aren’t written or funded by Macedonians. Who knows people in Greece today who have relatives with “blond” hair and blue and green eyes may non-Greek with Slav ancestors. Everything is possible.]
My response:
Yes Filip. Dimiss that which your once national statesman went on public record to say and conveniently maintain your view on Greek’s Ethiopian roots… Perhaps for every Greek whose hair is curly this may genetically be due to the Ethiopians Afro hair. As for the fairer skin colour of Greeks, perhaps this may have been the result of eating too many olives (of the greener variety not the Kalamata olives!) when the Ethiopians decided to migrate to Greece. Your statement is utter nonsense which does not deserve the time of day.
Filip wrote:
[Greece’s excuse that the Macedonian people have territorial ambitions against Greece. Please give us a break. As stated by Anynomous Hellene “Greece just simply cannot allow a nation of 2 million people dictate terms and usurp??? its own identity.” That says it all, how can a country as small as that occupy Greece. If they are both members of NATO then how can one country attack the other if they are on the same side? If they are both in EU what economic benefit would one country have if it attacks another? No benefit. Greece’s argument is absurd.]
My response:
Do not misrepresent what I said. I merely made a statement that Greece will not allow your country to dictate terms and usurp our identity. The demographics between our two countries and the policitical and military balance can all come undone in the future if widespread conflict evolves. Look no further than your former Yugoslavia.. Who would have thought in 1950 that Yugoslavia would cease to exist before the turn of the century and that a small Serbian province named Vardaska Bonaniva would be given autonomy and later independence with the name “Macedonia” to rival the one and only Macedonia in the world at the time in northern Greece?
Filip wrote:
[When it comes to friendship it is the Greeks who need to be taught a lesson. Out of their neighbours, number one country they get along with. No one would invest in Macedonia for the benefit of the Macedonians only, especially someone from Greece. Lets face it the Greek companies have invested because they have put politics aside and invested where there is a potential of making a profit. The Macedonians trust the Greeks so much as they have allowed them to invest even in utilities, energy, banking, telecommunications etc. Hypothetically speaking, would the same be said for a Macedonian wishing to invest in Greece? The Greek answer would be that the Macedonian has territorial ambitions and based on this it will not be allowed.]
My response:
Greece enjoys the respect of ALL its neghbours yet from time to time experiences turbulence in its relations as do Greece’s neighbours with their respective neighbours and so on… Greece is a developed mixed capitalist economy, a member of the European Union, member of NATO, and dozens other UN affiliated organisations. Until recently, Greece was the only country in the politically volatile Balkans region which was a beacon of hope for other aspiring member countries at large. It shoud not be of any surprise that Greece placed high importance on certain values as a framework for its good neighbourly relations; sometimes this insistence creating a rift in its relations. Allow me to ask you this same question in reverse: What do Bulgarians think about your “Macedonian” identity and culture? Do they not think this is Bulgarian? Why do some Serbs within your population consider the FYROM to be southern Serbia? Does the 1/3 population of Albanian speaking peoples genuinely consider themselves as “Macedonian”? Why does the Serbian Orthodox Church not recognise your very own? Is Greece not the most stable partner your country has in the region? Is Greece not the only neighbouring country WITHOUT territorial designs on your own? Of course Greek investors in your country expect a decent return. Should you be surpised about this? In turn, should we be grateful for the opportunity provided to invest in your country, to reap financial rewards, and at the same time, to create jobs for your people and fastrack the development of your economy?
Regards
Anonymous Hellene.
Filip Wrote:
Paul is sounding like one of the typical Greek hypocrites who make up rules as they go.
Have you the sole right to claim the Macedonian land/country/nationality/name based on history, but people who have lived there just as long haven’t? No you don’t.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are the one as we read the reast of your post and previous posts who make this claim for yourself and your country.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You can think that based on “your historical beliefs” only Modern Greeks can only call themselves Macedonian -yet Modern Greeks who aren’t related to the ancient
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thats what you think based on your historical beliefs
and its very convenient for you to say so.
But modern genetic testing shows that this is not the case. Are you now saying you are the “true” and “only” descendants of the ancient Greeks too?
look at pictures of Ethiopians and Greeks they are very different.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Americans, Canadians or Australians can call themselves Americans, Candadian or Australians etc. This is how a typical Greek hypocrite bends the rules as they go to suit their arguments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are twisting again.
LISTEN UP…MY POINT IS THIS.. GREECE SAYS OKAY to share the name but NOT MONOOLIZE IT by stating you are the only MACEDONIANS without qualification
i.e, Slav Macedonian, Upper Macedonians etc.
HOW is that monopolizing the name? Thats sharing the name.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There are many Greeks who still don’t accept the fact that Macedonians, ie. non-Greek people have lived and still live in the area just as long if not longer than them in Macedonia.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No we just dispute your claim that the ancient MAcedonians were NOT Greek.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I wouldn’t be surprised if they are part of the “Hellenised” people group who don’t have anything more important to do except to prove that Alexander the Great allegedly spread Greek culture around the world and everyone should believe that the Macedonians were Greeks!!! I am sorry to say but we disagree with you. Everyone would have called him Alexander the Great from Greece not from Macedonia – Zorba the Greek is a good example.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And I am NOT sorry to say that we disagree with you because we have facts on our side.
Your responses speak for themselves.
I do not have to prove that he spread Greek culture
HE DID…thats a matter of fact not opinion…ask any non FYROM history professor.
If you want to argue he was not Greek and simply adopted Greek culture thats another argument.. But you are not doing that.
?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You have to get it through your thick skulls that you don’t solely own the word or nationality of “Macedonia”. I am Macedonian and you or no one can’t take that away from me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We are Macedonians and you can’t take that away from us either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I stated previously we have called our region “Republic of Macedonia” since the WWII. It was called Macedonia before that also.
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And many different ethnic groups live there.
Why does the SLAV speaking one get the right to monopolize the name?
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Let me remind you prior to the Balkan Wars it was part of the Ottoman Empire before it was divided by Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria. Greece could have called their part Macedonia but they didn’t – they called it Northern Greece.
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Thats not factual.. I explained you can all an area as in the US the SOUTH and mean Georgia Florida etc.
or you can talk about specific provinces..
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Paul, don’t you accuse me twisting your posts as it is you who twists mine.
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Any third party objectively reading what you write and what I write will tell you that you are twisting my posts not the other way around
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Greece had a firm stand on the word “Macedonia”. It insisted on my country coming up with any name of without the word “Macedonia”, ie until they realised the rest of the world wouldn’t go along with it.
One of our former leaders may have stated that “we are slavs” but don’t go around trying to base your facts on this.
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WHy not.? so then you are claiming you are not Slavs?
Its not a curse word to say you are a slav!!!
I base this on the fact also that people from your country speak a language very closely related to Bulgarian.
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There is proof that the Modern Greeks are not genetically related to the Ancient Greeks either.
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Says you.. Many studies say the opposite. and your Ethiopian remarks are ridiculous.
Blacks are not Olive to fair Skinned.
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“Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the “older” Mediterranenan substratum and “Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.” This quote can be found on many websites that aren’t written or funded by Macedonians.
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On many racist Nordicist supremacist websites yes.
On moderate historically based websites this is not the case.
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Who knows people in Greece today who have relatives with “blond” hair and blue and green eyes may non-Greek with Slav ancestors. Everything is possible.
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My point was to say that Greeks go from Olive to Fair
NOT BLACK and CURLY TIGHT HAIR typical of Africans.
AND its not possible its a reality there are Greeks esp. in Thessaly and in my own family who have fairer features.
And I am not really dark either. Compared to a pale norwegian yes.. compared to an African I am white..
I am moderately olive skinned. That is the mediteranean dominant skin color. and in the winter when I am not out in the sun I am more pale.
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Greece’s excuse that the Macedonian people have territorial ambitions against Greece. Please give us a break.
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This is not an excuse this is a fact.. Your country’s leaders have made statements about liberating all the parts of Macedonia.
And your students see on top of their blackboards maps of a greater macedonia..
And when interviewed by A Greek Reporter your students taught by your government say your country ends in place like Thessaloniki and Larissa.
So there.
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Paul is referring to extremist Macedonian websites again. I can find an equal number or even more extremist Greek websites that are racist just about anyone who isn’t Greek and continually make false claims. Don’t use this as an argument.
When it comes to friendship it is the Greeks who need to be taught a lesson. Out of their neighbours, number one country they get along with. No one would invest in Macedonia for the benefit of the Macedonians only, especially someone from Greece. Lets face it the Greek companies have invested because they have put politics aside and invested where there is a potential of making a profit. The Macedonians trust the Greeks so much as they have allowed them to invest even in utilities, energy, banking, telecommunications etc. Hypothetically speaking, would the same be said for a Macedonian wishing to invest in Greece? The Greek answer would be that the Macedonian has territorial ambitions and based on this it will not be allowed.
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You have no money to invest in Greece..Greece is open to investment.
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What is happening in Kosovo has to some extent already happened in parts of today’s Greece.
How is that? we do not have a huge population of non-Greeks dominate in any one section of Greece.
We do have lots of Muslims in Thrace but they are not the majority.
Kosovo is your next door neighbor and adjacent to Albanian dominant areas of your country.