Macedonia, Greece: FYROM
Macedonia
Edward Lucas shares his piece on Greece's problems with a neighboring country also known as FYROM.
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Edward Lucas shares his piece on Greece's problems with a neighboring country also known as FYROM.
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Based on the Wikipedia list of countries, details.
Vlatko & Filip,
[ Part 2 (ii) ]
We have been talking about Greece through this time, what about Bulgaria? What does Bulgarian public opinion say about the Slavic identity of FYROM? Does it recognise your language as anything but a Bulgarian dialect? Why is the Serbian Orthodox Church refusing to recognise your respective religious denomination? In your reference to 2 million Macedonians, are you including the 3+ million Greek Macedonians? (of course not!) – What about the 20-25 percent of Albanians within the population of FYROM? Do they regard themselves as ethnically “Macedonian” as well above Albanian? Will they not opt to secede if this was offered to them? What about the minority of Serbs within your northern border? Do these people also consider themselves as being Macedonian? (I think not). My understanding is that these people consider the territory of FYROM to be what was once “Southern Serbia”.
In closing, I wish to say that we are all people of the region and must find a way to co-exist peacefully and to contribute to our welfare. This is a given. A prerequisite, however, is respect for each other’s true history and a determination to mutually resolve any differences that may fester from time to time.
Greece is in a position to support the FYROM politically, economically, and in any other way… In fact, there have been tangible actions on the ground by Greek governments and enterprises to this effect… You will note Greece is the largest investor in your country (over 1 billion Euros), the largest trading partner, as well as the country most likely to come to your defence should your country come under attack and/or should anarchy reign in as it did some years ago with your communal violence.
Furthermore, Greece has no stated territorial claims against FYROM; simply it wishes to protect what it has as its own and Greeks are steadfast to defend what they perceive to be their culture.
I regret and apologise if you have come across elements in the Greek population that have upset you and shown you disrespect. I sometimes come across fellow Greeks that irate me also. I suppose there are good and not so good persons in all populations; including yours.
I do not wish to have the last word and have nothing further to say – I wish love, peace, prosperity, and good fortune to your people as well as to mine.
Paul,
People with blond hair and blue eyes are least likely to be Modern Greek, but people who been “Hellenised” like many Macedonians in not the too distant past may have blond hair and blue eyes.
The majority of Modern Greeks are “olive skinned dark haired people”, and that is a fact!
There is no need to change our name as we have already been recognised as “Republic of Macedonia” by around 120 countries.
Why doesn’t Greece add an adjective to their part of Macedonia, eg Modern Greek Macedonia or Former Greek State of Macedonia (FGOM)?
The Macedonians have never objected to the Modern Greeks or Bulgarians referring themselves Macedonian. The Republic of Macedonia refers to all people who live in the country not just Macedonians.
I don’t know what schools you are referring to, but the maps that are shown are most likely referring to Macedonia during the Ottoman Empire. Prior to the Balkan Wars, there was only one region of Macedonia occupied by the Turks.
Alexander the Great argument will never stop. There are scholars who have different opinions. We had anAnglo-Saxon teachers debating this issue. There are many other forums.
You are comaring apples to oranges. Greek Macedonia is a province of Greece. Basically you want or seem to want to say that there is a:
Greek Macedonia
Bulgarian Macedonia
and finally
a Macedonian Macedonia…
and what follows:
which then as some irredentists in your country conclude means that Greece and Bulgaria “stole” land and delegitimize these other people.
Claiming Macedonian as an ethnicity along wtih Alexander the Great as your exclusive heritage is to deny Greeks and to a lesser extent others of that heritage that comes with that name.
You still do not explain why what is wrong with
Slav-Macedonia as the name of your country and the name of your people.
Do you dispute that you are primarily descended of a branch of the Slavic people?
BTW There is nothing wrong with being Slavic. So, I am not putting you down by saying your Slavic.
The only legitimate concern I can see is that you have other non-Slavic peoples in your country and you may feel that this does an injustice to them.
But nonetheless saying you are the only Macedonians is like saying only Anglo-Saxon Americans are the only Americans Irish, Italian heritage and others are not true Americans. They are all in the region called America but off different ethnic heritages. (this is not a perfect analogy but I hope you see my point).
The name issue is symptomatic of some irredentist extremist elements in your country that promote movies that contain historical lies like that Greeks used Napalm (before it was even invented) on native Macedonians to ethnically cleanse them.
And the only reason I bring up Alexander the Great is that people in your country claim him and his people as their progenitors. But that makes no sense as I said previously because it is not a matter of opinion but of fact that he spread Greek language and culture to his kingdoms not some other langauge and culture.
There are plenty of native pure bred Greeks who have blond hair and blue eyes but the majority are Olive and dark haired that does not mean they are not descended from the ancient Greeks.
Anyway, if you are arguing that perhaps the original Macedonian tribe blended in , in later times with Slavs settlers thats possible too. But still does not make it fair to approrpiate a name of a whole region just for your part and for your ethnicity.
Why is being Slavic wrong or offensive?
In fact a hyphenated name for your ethnicity makes even more sense when you consider that there are:
Albanian-Macedonians (ethnicity-region)
Bulgarian-Macedonians
Greek-Macedonians
Turkish-Macedonians
Serbian-Macedonians
They are all legitimate inhabitants of the whole region and to some extent all of these are found in all 3 countries.
Maybe the Slav Macedonian title is too large an umbrella
because that could include the Serbs and Bulgarians.
South-Slav Macedonians.
but just Macedonians, is something like I said, an Irish heritage person saying he is a American and that others of other ethnicities are not Macedonians.
If I am not mistaken most of your people are Orthodox Christians at least nominally and I think that this along wtih the trade and investments and mutual welfare of the region makes it important for everyone to attempt to get along and respect one another.
Paul,
I don’t want to repeat something you have heard already but I’d gather you know that Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia each took a portion of Macedonia after the Balkan Wars. There are facts that all regions were renamed intentionally, ie Northern Greece, Southern Serbia and Bulgaria.
Serbia’s part became Republic of Macedonia of the Yugoslavian Federation after World War II. The Greeks renamed Northern Greece to “Macedonia” in 1988 when they realised Yugoslavia would break up. The Bulgarian provinces do not include Macedonia in any of their names.
My point is the name “Republic of Macedonia” has been around for more than 60 years – it is not new. The Macedonians have never threatened Bulgaria or Greece and do not have the power to do so in the future. Why is then Greece threatening to veto the entry of Macedonia into NATO or EU unless Macedonia changes its name? Is this based on history?
The only place the Macedonians (who are Slav Macedonians to you) have been able to stand up proud and call themselves Macedonians are in Republic of Macedonia. All of the other nationalities are recognised and are given equal rights. Macedonians welcome Greek visitors and Greek investors with open arms. It’s sad this can’t be said for the Greeks greeting Macedonians.
We all call ourselves Macedonians and there is no need to rechristen ourselves, be it Slav-Macedonian or whatever name you come up with. We have nothing against the word Slav. Why isn’t there a prefix to all of the other countries defining their origins, eg Slav Serbia or Slav-Croatia or Anglo-America or Anglo-Australia etc? It doesn’t make any sense to me.
I am glad you accept that there are Macedonians in all of the three countries. Greece still refuses to recognise it’s Macedonians minority. There is proof that anyone who declares himself as a Macedonian and doesn’t speak Greek is treated as a second class citizen. Greeks who speak up for are called traitors.
Please note that there are also many Greeks who claim that Alexander the Great was Greek.
As I have said previously, we don’t have anything against anyone calling themselves Macedonian. No one is stopping you. You can call yourself Macedonian with Greek origins if you wish. I want to call myself Macedonian with Macedonian origins. That’s what I am.
PS. I have many Greek friends, been to Greece and to many Greek functions and I can’t think of anyone that is blonde with blue eyes.
I see no argument to contradict Paul in what he writes, but I am sure there will be some unsybstantiated ones soonest to read…
moreover and on top of what is written, if our neighbor FYROM people are truly disgusted by the Greek propaganda, when all they ask for is to be left alone with their name and heritage and country and culture and all the rest, why do they not protest to their government about having in their local money bank notes, the picture of Thessaloniki engraved…???!!!
Is it a coincidence…?
Is it a simple remain of the past?
Or is the FYROM propaganda far more clever and silent than what we could have ever expected and therefore invisible by the greater world…?
At the end of the day we have to attribute to our neighbors the respect they so diserv.
They let the stupid Greeks shout and create all that fuzz with vetos and diplomatic moves and international mobilisation, when at the same time all they do is circulating maps (unofficially) showing their country occupying half of Greece and stating that allthough they should claim their “”"original borders”"” (…!!!) all they want is their name (…!!!???) and to back that argument they use their bank notes featuring Thessaloniki as their capital city…
Clever, but not clever enough…
Greeks do international diplomacy for thousands of years, when our Slavs neighbors were still nomades, seeking for a country to be hosted by.
FYROM was formed after Slavs attacked and conquered a part northern Greece, a part of the Greek region called Makedonia.
That does not give the people of FYROM to be called Makedonians.
Get a name of your own.
Makedonia is and has always been a part of Greece.
FOR THOSE THAT SEEK A NAME FOR “MACEDONIA”.
THE NAME OF THE AREA BEFORE WORLD WAR II WAS VARDARSKA.
THE NAME MACEDONIA WAS GIVEN TO THEM BY THEIR CRYPTO JEWISH LEADER JOSEF BROSTEIN (OR THE LEADER KNOWN AS TITO).
ATTACHED YOU WILL FIND THEIR MAP BEFORE 1940.
A FEW NOTES FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW.
1. ALEXANDER THE GREAT AND HIS TEACHER ARISTOTLE SPOKE HELLENIC. NOT ANY SLAVIC LANGUAGE.
2. THE MACEDONIAN CAPITAL WAS PELLA. NOT SKOPJE.
3. ALEXANDER’S SISTER WAS CALLED THESSALONIKI. NOT SOLUN LIKE THE SLAV(E)S CALL IT.
4. VOUKEFALAS WAS ALEXANDER’S HORSE. NOT A ZASTAVA.
SO, VARDARSKA IT IS AND STOP PLAYING WITH THE REAL MACEDONIANS.
WE’VE HAD ENOUGH WITH THIS JOKE.
It seams to me rather unfortunate this whole fiasco i would like to remind the slav macedonians that it is in their long term intrest to have freindly relations with their fellow orthodox neighbours looking at wats happened recently to the serbian province of Kosovo which is now in Albanian hands , Looking at the current rate of population growth of the albanians it will be not be long before their 30% of the population will overtake the christians and their goal will be to unite with a greater Albania,
Yannis,
We don’t have to explain in detail or prove why we disagree with you, Paul or anyone else who disagrees with us. We have being doing that for long enough!
However, I believe Paul’s questions were answered. I completely understand what he is trying to put forward. I explained why there is no reason to rename Macedonia to “Slav-Macedonia” and the people as “Slav-Macedonians.” My grand father, his grandfather etc all called themselves Macedonians when Macedonia was occupied by the Turks and not Slav-Macedonians.
As I stated everyone in Macedonia of different ethnic backgrounds can call themselves Macedonian if they wish to. They have every right to do so. Paul is saying the completely opposite to that when he uses the Anglo-Saxon Americans as an example.
My response to using the name of “Republic of Macedonia” for our region is that it has been around for over 60 years and is not new. Greece did not object to it to the same extent until Yugoslavia broke up and changed its region to Macedonia. Paul is saying that it is not fair to “appropriate” a name of a whole region for our region only. If that is so, then why does Greece call their region Macedonia also (which is not the whole region of Macedonia).
I also responded to the current relationship between the Macedonians and Greeks. I agree it is very important for everyone to get along and respect each other equally, but the sad picture is one side isn’t all that interested.
Yannis:
Please refer to the Wikipedia regarding the coin. Part of it states: “…unofficial banknotes depicting the White Tower,[4] which were sold as souvenirs on the streets of Skopje.[5][6] The printing of the notes became the subject of a rumor in Greece that the currency of the new neighbouring state did in fact depict Greek symbols… and “…The notes were never placed in circulation, as they were not legal tender, but the episode nonetheless exacerbated the ill will felt between the two countries and helped to aggravate tensions in the Balkans”
When it comes to your other points – it’s not worth discussing them with you.
Sofroni:
We want a friendly relationship with all of our neighbours. We have to look forward with lots of planning. But before that we have to do what is in the best interest for our country. Becoming members of NATO and EU will hopefully ensure there is peace all around in our region. Living in fear is no benefit to anyone.
Yiannis, Paul, Sofron, and other Greeks…
Politicians and select individuals from our neighbouring country (FYROM) have been successful in creating confusion over the name, history, and culture that is Macedonia.
In turn, the emotional recoil reaction of the Greeks in terms of mass demonstrations and the like has seemed to have played to their hands by giving the subject matter greater publicity than otherwise would be the case.
Nevertheless, we cannot be too hard on ourselves in expecting a unanimous world view supporting our position given that international politics is not played on the basis of fact or truth; rather opportunism.
Having said this, I am confident there is little opportunity left for the government in Skopje to make further gains….
From here on end, the reality is starting to set in that their very existence as a nation state is not guaranteed amidst the political turmoil in the wider region. In this regard, they will certainly come to understand that Greece will use all its political leverage in defence of its legitimate interests.
The way forward is for a mutually acceptable resolution to the name issue whereby the term ‘Macedonia” is used only as a geographical reference and not as a distinct cultural identity to describe residents of the FYROM.
Continued intransigence by the government in Skopje to a mutually acceptable resolution will result in FYROM remaining in the sidelines of European and Euro-Atlantic integration.
This consideration together with a likely intensification of inter-communal violence between the Slav and Albanian communities may even result in perpetual instability within the FYROM; possibly civil war and disintegration.
The choice for our northern neighbours is clear: Abandon your hostile policy toward Greece or risk your very survival. – not a threat, rather a probable eventuality.
I am confident that politicians in Skopje will come to the table eventually when all the kicking and screaming is over and there are no more places to hide.
Greece just simply cannot allow a nation of 2 million people dictate terms and usurp its own identity.
Filip wrote:
We all call ourselves Macedonians and there is no need to rechristen ourselves, be it Slav-Macedonian or whatever name you come up with. We have nothing against the word Slav. Why isn’t there a prefix to all of the other countries defining their origins, eg Slav Serbia or Slav-Croatia……..
>>>>>>
ANSWER because it is very clear that the land of the Bulgarians is Bulgaria.. the land of the Serbs is Serbia.
So their is no need to qualify they are slavic. It is understood. Whereas with your nation-state and ethnicity, if you are interested in getting along and not stealing history and are not interested in irredentist visions and schemes..then you should be willing to qualify that you are a slavic people,because Macedonia or Macedonian simply can NOT exclude Greeks. I am a Macedonian and I speak a Macedonian language a modern form of the same language that Alexander the Great spoke and spread as the language of his empire. So then, I think its generous and compromising of Greece to suggest the use of a qualified name to your country and ethnicity. Otherwise you are appropriating the name, cultural legacy etc..as something separate from Greece.
Also Filip wrote:
Please note that there are also many Greeks who claim that Alexander the Great was Greek.
>>>>>
So, what are you saying he was NOT Greek?
I pick up that some people in your country do not believe that at all and others with irredentist pursuits do.
If so, then why would he spread Greek language and culture and not “macedonianm (slavic)” language and culture or some-other non-greek macedonian culture and language instead????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Perhaps you are attempting to argue that the ancient macedonians were a non-greek tribe that adopted greek culture and language…but then nonetheless even if that were the case… then they were Hellenized by choice..they saw a culture they esteemed and took up its language and culture. Therefore even in this scenario is they were assimilated into a common Greek culture by their own desire. and modern greeks are connected to them anyway both linguistically and otherwise
I do not think that there are 100% pure races..whatever that means..But there is continuity and connection with the ancients.
So perhaps Vlatko or whomever posted previously that we are “cousins” is on to something that perhaps can be a bridge between the two peoples.
(meaning that the ancient Macedonians descendants blended in with Slavs and (other) Greeks etc )
>>>>>>
I do not think all people in your country have irredentist designs and dreams..but enough do to cause a problem for us down the line.
Your former leader Mr. Gilgorov (sorry I do not have the correct spelling in front of me) said that the modern “macedonians” are not related to the ancients or connected to Alexander the Great.
>>>>>>
The blond blue eyed greeks..I never said most greeks were blond hair – blue eyed..but there are greeks who are and are not slavic origin. Esp. people from Mountainous areas tend to be fairer and people at lower elevations are more dark.
My cousin has blond hair and my father has green eyes my grandmother blue eyes.
The only reason I touched on this was the claim that Modern Greeks were North Africans..which is nonsensical and another attempt to delegitimize Greeks. (The implication that the ancient Greeks greatness was due to “Aryan” qualities and the more Olive Modern Greeks are “not descendants of ANcient Greeks anyway” is what is behind this sentiment). There is no evidence that the Ancient Greeks were exclusively or even mostly Noridcs.
Thats something racists spread because they think only good things could come from Germany or Scandanavia.
And Greece always referred to their nothern province as Macedonia. Just like in the USA we refer to the South as a region of the USA but that does not mean we do not call Florida, Florida or Georgia Georgia etc.
So somebody could be talking about the South and yet also refer to a specific province.
Usually when Greeks speak of Northern Greece they referring to Macedonia and Thrace. Even before your country became separate from Yugoslavia I remember that our province of Macedonia was called Macedonia.
So you are off base with this Northern Greece confusion you are trying to create.
Every country has North and South parts and may refer to them by their provincial names or their directional regional names esp when referring to several provinces.
The ancient Macedonians were a tribe of Greeks not Slavs. If you want to believe or can even prove that a tribe of Greeks contributed to your DNA by mixing with later Slav settlers fine.
Minimally, and this is conceding much but just to make a point,…if they were not a tribe of Greeks..then they become on by assimilation..by choice and modern greeks share in their heritage genetically and otherwise.
The New Testament was written in Greek. because Greek became the common language of the Eastern Mediterranean because of Alexanders conquests.
So why was not slavic or some other non-greek language the language that was spread????????????????????????????????????
When you say that your country was named Macedonia for 60 years you prove the point that before that it was not called that and anyway this was a name for a province of Yugoslavia. just as Bulgaria and Greece name a specific province Macedonia.
I do not think most Greeks can accept calling your country or people Macedonian unless its qualified.
its not like asking Serbs to say you are Slav-Serbs.
its not equivalent. Its more like asking an Irish American to specify his ethnic heritage. To say the name of a geographic region only implies one group that can use it unqualified..esp the one of the two or three not speaking the language and connected cultural to the Ancients with that name is ridiculous and there can only be hostile machinations behind that.
Simply because it implies that non-slavs specifically Greeks in this case are NOT Macedonians, at least not equally legitimate inhabitants of the whole region called Macedonia and this term and ancient history are NOT related to Ancient Greece which is in fact not the case.
Plus the simple fact is that Greece has always called a specific Northern province Macedonia and this causes confusion.
*************getting BEYOND THE NAME****..we have to ask what is your government teaching in schools and through other propaganda.
1) Greeks committed crimes with Napalm (before it was even invented ) against “native” “macedonians”. There was some movie to this effect.
2) Ancient Macedonia is NOT connected with ancient Greece
neither is Alexander the Great and Modern Greeks are not connected to Ancient Greeks anyway….of course that is why he spread Hellenic language and culture not slavic.
3)Money and maps that point to irredentist plans in the long term.
to your people who do not hold to those beliefs then fine you are fine with me and probably most Greeks and the name issue is something that can be resolved some how, to the others you are brainwashed to hate us and there is nothing to talk about have a nice day and I’ll pray for you to be enlightened with the truth rather than NWO/communist lies.
the problem for all of you though is your country is currently run by people who made a huge u-turn from previous govts and is promoting this other version of history. and this will cause problems for your economy.
and as time goes on the Albanians will be and are your problem why are you supposed Christians getting into fight with Greece when you have a huge Muslim irredentist segment in your own country. You should be friendlier to those that feed you, Greece is the number one investor in your landlocked country and we share similar religious heritage esp. with this Kosovo business going on (Albanian irredentism).