Comments on: Russia, Estonia: The Monument http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/ The world is talking. Are you listening? Sun, 27 May 2012 16:56:01 -0400 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: pille http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-2/#comment-1505196 pille Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:07:27 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-1505196 Dear Tukmakof, Soviet statues have been taken down because they symbolize Russian aggression for estonians. Should be clear enough, otherwise read Estonian history of years 1939-1944. About SS-marches. Many estonians were in Soviet army, some were in German army during WWII. I suggest you start realizing that both of them had NO OPTION WHATSOEVER. Thay just tried to liberate their country from occupants - russians or germans. Start seeing a little further than your own nose. Most of russians that live in Estonia today, have come to Estonia during Russian occupation 1944-1991. Russians' homeland is actually Russia. Estonians have lived here for 10.000 years. Dear Tukmakof,

Soviet statues have been taken down because they symbolize Russian aggression for estonians. Should be clear enough, otherwise read Estonian history of years 1939-1944.

About SS-marches. Many estonians were in Soviet army, some were in German army during WWII. I suggest you start realizing that both of them had NO OPTION WHATSOEVER. Thay just tried to liberate their country from occupants – russians or germans.

Start seeing a little further than your own nose. Most of russians that live in Estonia today, have come to Estonia during Russian occupation 1944-1991. Russians’ homeland is actually Russia. Estonians have lived here for 10.000 years.

]]> By: Russian http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-2/#comment-1184786 Russian Tue, 12 Jun 2007 01:53:45 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-1184786 I'm Russian and am originnaly from Estonia. I currently live in the U.S. and was looking up information on this incident in Estonia. I just wanted to say that for Russians the monument is about the soldiers who gave their life, who died in the war ... it's not about the Soviet Times. I see German cemeteries all over Estonia ... nobody demolishes or relocates them. History is history. What happnened ... happened. We can't return those who dies or undo all the hurt and suffering that people went through ... but we can save history, save memorials that have a significant meaning to others. As far as human rights then as much as Estonians want to deny it there is descrimination in Estonia. I speak fluent Estonian and have 4 year degree but every time I applied for a job in Estonia my RUSSIAN last name did not get me anywhere. I did not even get a chance for the interview. I agree that people who live in Estonia need to learn Estonian but at the same time it is easier said than done. Yes, younger generation will easily learn Estonian langiage but what about older generation??? Try to learn all the terms related to specific field in Estonian when you are 55 years old. It's not that easy. I think you guys should cut us some slack. I’m Russian and am originnaly from Estonia. I currently live in the U.S. and was looking up information on this incident in Estonia. I just wanted to say that for Russians the monument is about the soldiers who gave their life, who died in the war … it’s not about the Soviet Times. I see German cemeteries all over Estonia … nobody demolishes or relocates them. History is history. What happnened … happened. We can’t return those who dies or undo all the hurt and suffering that people went through … but we can save history, save memorials that have a significant meaning to others.

As far as human rights then as much as Estonians want to deny it there is descrimination in Estonia. I speak fluent Estonian and have 4 year degree but every time I applied for a job in Estonia my RUSSIAN last name did not get me anywhere. I did not even get a chance for the interview. I agree that people who live in Estonia need to learn Estonian but at the same time it is easier said than done. Yes, younger generation will easily learn Estonian langiage but what about older generation??? Try to learn all the terms related to specific field in Estonian when you are 55 years old. It’s not that easy. I think you guys should cut us some slack.

]]> By: polish view http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-2/#comment-1072168 polish view Fri, 04 May 2007 08:21:27 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-1072168 It tells a lot that all Central and West European countries that were libered by victorious Red Army share the same opinion about this liberation. Nevertheless they respect all Russian solidiers that died during march to Berlin with duly respect. It is a pity that many Russian soldiers that survived capturing Berlin were later on sent to Syberia (they saw too much). It is a pity that Russian Army brought not only a freedom but also occupation and oppresion (in contrast to US Army that truly liberated West countries). The history is both a matter of the facts as well as personal opinion, but as a Pole I must remind everyone that on 17st of September 1939 it was Stalin who attack my country alongside with Hitler. In a few months 1 milion Poles where sent to Syberia and 20 000 army and officers where shooted dead in Katyn, Starobielsk which is still unbeliaveble. Those two dictators closely cooperate untlil the day of Fasist agression in the area of intelligence, military and economic cooperation (Stalin was sending raw materials while Nazis fought in France etc). Who could undermine this facts? It tells a lot that all Central and West European countries that were libered by victorious Red Army share the same opinion about this liberation. Nevertheless they respect all Russian solidiers that died during march to Berlin with duly respect.
It is a pity that many Russian soldiers that survived capturing Berlin were later on sent to Syberia (they saw too much). It is a pity that Russian Army brought not only a freedom but also occupation and oppresion (in contrast to US Army that truly liberated West countries). The history is both a matter of the facts as well as personal opinion, but as a Pole I must remind everyone that on 17st of September 1939 it was Stalin who attack my country alongside with Hitler. In a few months 1 milion Poles where sent to Syberia and 20 000 army and officers where shooted dead in Katyn, Starobielsk which is still unbeliaveble. Those two dictators closely cooperate untlil the day of Fasist agression in the area of intelligence, military and economic cooperation (Stalin was sending raw materials while Nazis fought in France etc). Who could undermine this facts?

]]> By: elmer http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-2/#comment-1068944 elmer Thu, 03 May 2007 15:09:27 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-1068944 As pointed out above - Nazi = Soviet And today, some russkies are still acting like soviets. As pointed out above -

Nazi = Soviet

And today, some russkies are still acting like soviets.

]]> By: No RPropaganda http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-2/#comment-1065389 No RPropaganda Wed, 02 May 2007 16:56:36 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-1065389 Russia is igniting internal conflicts in neighboring Estonia This has happened never before in Estonia, small peaceful country in Northern Europe, member of NATO and EU since 2004. A Bronze Soldier, the statue in Soviet Red Army uniform standing until last Friday on small green square in centre of capital Tallinn, was for Estonians the symbol of harsh Soviet occupations from 1940 - 1941 and 1944 to 1991. Ten's of thousand people were deported without court decision to Siberia or killed in Soviet state-terror during that regime as a part of ethnic cleansing. But part of the Russian community, migrated here within same Soviet occupation in search of better and European-style life, is following cold-war time Soviet history concept. For them these events and statue meant memorial of "liberation" of Baltic States Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, as well as whole Europe in WW II. Nazi equals Soviet The problem is that Baltic States, but also Poland have suffered both from Nazi-Germany and Soviet occupations in WW II. And defeating the Nazi-Germany did not mean that Baltic countries were liberated, but that German occupation was changed by other, Soviet occupation, which in some cases was even worse. Therefore Bronze Soldier was a symbol of Soviet empire and simply could not been tolerated any longer in centre of capital of EU and NATO member country. Especially because within last years it was increasingly used by Putin propaganda-machine as a Russian symbol to generate tension in Estonia between whole society and less integrated smaller part of Russian community. So it was inevitable to relocate it from Tallinn city centre, leaving still chance for those, who have different opinions, chance to visit the statue on military cemetery in Tallinn, where also the remains of dozen Soviet soldiers will be reburied. Heavy violent propaganda and co-ordination from Russia Government planned to relocate the statue last week in peaceful manner with holy memorial ceremony. But about thousand people, demanding not to touch the monument at all as it was symbol of Russian power, started to attack police and throw the stones. This confrontation coordinated by Russian embassy in Tallinn and turned on heavily by numerous Russian TV-channels frequent and unbalanced emotional reports, widespread quickly and turned into street violence, vandalism and shop raiding, never taken place in Tallinn before. Almost everybody and everything, not being Russian origin, was labeled to be "fascist". Also, the windows of Estonian National Opera and main square located St. John's Church were stoned. Shouting: "Russia! Russia!" the shop raiders were stealing the alcohol, premium brand clothes (Hugo Boss, Giorgio Armani, Gucci shops were raided). About hundred shops were raided and stoned, dozens of cars beaten. As a result, almost 1000 people were arrested in three days, amongst them number of experienced criminals with long track record. Considering the situation, the Bronze Soldier statue was relocated on Friday morning and is standing now on Defense Forces cemetery where it's accessible to everyone. But this has not stopped the propaganda war from Moscow. Massive hostile media campaign from Russia against Estonia has now reached advanced stage, accusing Estonia in re-evaluation of WW II results, of course not speaking a single word about Soviet-run mass crimes, killings and deportations in Baltic States during Soviet occupation. Also, shop robbers are shown in Russian TV as "fighters for our memory and against fascism" and Estonian government and police are accused by Russian TV as "state repressive organs, humiliating rights of Russians". It's No. 1 news topic in all Russian TV channels already for three days. The fact, that statue of Bronze Soldier has been removed and erected already in new place (Defense Forces Cemetery) where everyone can visit it, has not changed the attitude. Hysteric reactions from Russia Russian Parliament has demanded to place the statue back to where it was before, also that Estonian Government has to step down. Needless to say, this is clear interference to Estonian internal affairs by all means. The Russian state accusations by now (Tuesday, Wednesday) have become absolutely hysterical and expressing complete lies. The member of Russian Parliament, Gosduma, Mr. Kovaljev accused after seeing the monument yesterday on its new location, that "statue has been sawed and holy memory disgraced". According to workers, giving an interview in Estonian TV, nothing such has happened as statue was relocated in one unit and as soon as possible. Also, massive scam and internet attacks against Estonian state authorities’ websites and media channels IT-systems have been started from Russia. "It's identified now that in some cases IP-addresses are related directly to Kremlin-run organizations and structures related presidential authorities of Russia," said Urmas Paet, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Estonia, yesterday on press conference. Also, it's proven that many people confronting police forces before events went violent, were paid by Embassy-run organizers a 80 EEK (app. EUR 5) per hour. Estonian embassy in Moscow is on under heavy 24h protest waves, psycho terror and attacks of Kremlin-supported youth organization "Nashi", getting minimal formal defense from Russian Militia. Estonian ambassador Mrs. Marina Kaljurand was attacked physically today (Wed, May 2) while trying to give a press conference. "Nashi" even declared that demolition of Estonian embassy in Moscow will start on June 12! Vladimir Zhirinovsky, Vice Chairman of Russian Parliament said yesterday: "Russia should organize major military campaign next to border with Estonia. And some troops may be mistakenly happen to be in Estonia and demolishing many cultural and historic sites. After which we will apologize, of course." It's important to note that despite all of this, most of the people in Estonia are still calm and there are no cases of violence from Estonian community. The importance of situation is illustrated by fact that almost 2000 people by now in Estonia have applied to become a member of Police Support Organization to protect the country from internal conflicts, coordinated from abroad. Soviet monuments not relocated, but demolished in Russia As a curiosity, Russian overreaction is hypocritical because on very same time, WW II monuments for Russian soldiers are demolished (not replaced) in Russia itself. It has happened in Moscow satellite city Himki a few weeks ago, also in Stavropoulos in southern region on last autumn. So all in all - it's symbolic war against Europe and another clear evidence of former KGB agent Putin tactics to show the world that Russia has not changed and need to show a power. We hope that all people reading this information will make their move on their home countries by demanding Russia stopping interfering immediately to Estonian /EU internal affairs. Also passing this info to as many people and media channels as you can, because Russian (population 150m people) TV propaganda is exceeding Estonian (1,3m people) explanations. Russia is igniting internal conflicts in neighboring Estonia

This has happened never before in Estonia, small peaceful country in
Northern Europe, member of NATO and EU since 2004.

A Bronze Soldier, the statue in Soviet Red Army uniform standing until
last Friday on small green square in centre of capital Tallinn, was for
Estonians the symbol of harsh Soviet occupations from 1940 – 1941 and 1944
to 1991. Ten’s of thousand people were deported without court decision to
Siberia or killed in Soviet state-terror during that regime as a part of
ethnic cleansing.

But part of the Russian community, migrated here within same Soviet
occupation in search of better and European-style life, is following
cold-war time Soviet history concept. For them these events and statue
meant memorial of “liberation” of Baltic States Estonia, Latvia and
Lithuania, as well as whole Europe in WW II.

Nazi equals Soviet

The problem is that Baltic States, but also Poland have suffered both from
Nazi-Germany and Soviet occupations in WW II. And defeating the
Nazi-Germany did not mean that Baltic countries were liberated, but that
German occupation was changed by other, Soviet occupation, which in some
cases was even worse.

Therefore Bronze Soldier was a symbol of Soviet empire and simply could
not been tolerated any longer in centre of capital of EU and NATO member
country. Especially because within last years it was increasingly used by
Putin propaganda-machine as a Russian symbol to generate tension in
Estonia between whole society and less integrated smaller part of Russian
community.

So it was inevitable to relocate it from Tallinn city centre, leaving
still chance for those, who have different opinions, chance to visit the
statue on military cemetery in Tallinn, where also the remains of dozen
Soviet soldiers will be reburied.

Heavy violent propaganda and co-ordination from Russia

Government planned to relocate the statue last week in peaceful manner
with holy memorial ceremony. But about thousand people, demanding not to
touch the monument at all as it was symbol of Russian power, started to
attack police and throw the stones. This confrontation coordinated by
Russian embassy in Tallinn and turned on heavily by numerous Russian
TV-channels frequent and unbalanced emotional reports, widespread quickly
and turned into street violence, vandalism and shop raiding, never taken
place in Tallinn before. Almost everybody and everything, not being
Russian origin, was labeled to be “fascist”. Also, the windows of Estonian
National Opera and main square located St. John’s Church were stoned.

Shouting: “Russia! Russia!” the shop raiders were stealing the alcohol,
premium brand clothes (Hugo Boss, Giorgio Armani, Gucci shops were
raided). About hundred shops were raided and stoned, dozens of cars
beaten. As a result, almost 1000 people were arrested in three days,
amongst them number of experienced criminals with long track record.

Considering the situation, the Bronze Soldier statue was relocated on
Friday morning and is standing now on Defense Forces cemetery where it’s
accessible to everyone.

But this has not stopped the propaganda war from Moscow.

Massive hostile media campaign from Russia against Estonia has now reached
advanced stage, accusing Estonia in re-evaluation of WW II results, of
course not speaking a single word about Soviet-run mass crimes, killings
and deportations in Baltic States during Soviet occupation. Also, shop
robbers are shown in Russian TV as “fighters for our memory and against
fascism” and Estonian government and police are accused by Russian TV as
“state repressive organs, humiliating rights of Russians”. It’s No. 1 news
topic in all Russian TV channels already for three days.

The fact, that statue of Bronze Soldier has been removed and erected
already in new place (Defense Forces Cemetery) where everyone can visit
it, has not changed the attitude.

Hysteric reactions from Russia

Russian Parliament has demanded to place the statue back to where it was
before, also that Estonian Government has to step down. Needless to say,
this is clear interference to Estonian internal affairs by all means.

The Russian state accusations by now (Tuesday, Wednesday) have become
absolutely hysterical and expressing complete lies. The member of Russian
Parliament, Gosduma, Mr. Kovaljev accused after seeing the monument
yesterday on its new location, that “statue has been sawed and holy memory
disgraced”. According to workers, giving an interview in Estonian TV,
nothing such has happened as statue was relocated in one
unit and as soon as possible.

Also, massive scam and internet attacks against Estonian state
authorities’ websites and media channels IT-systems have been
started from Russia. “It’s identified now that in some cases IP-addresses
are related directly to Kremlin-run organizations and structures related
presidential authorities of Russia,” said Urmas Paet, Minister of Foreign
Affairs of Estonia, yesterday on press conference. Also, it’s proven that
many people confronting police forces before events went violent, were
paid by Embassy-run organizers a 80 EEK (app. EUR 5) per hour.

Estonian embassy in Moscow is on under heavy 24h protest waves, psycho
terror and attacks of Kremlin-supported youth organization “Nashi”,
getting minimal formal defense from Russian Militia. Estonian ambassador
Mrs. Marina Kaljurand was attacked physically today (Wed, May 2) while
trying to give a press conference. “Nashi” even declared that demolition
of Estonian embassy in Moscow will start on June 12!

Vladimir Zhirinovsky, Vice Chairman of Russian Parliament said yesterday:
“Russia should organize major military campaign next to border with
Estonia. And some troops may be mistakenly happen to be in Estonia and
demolishing many cultural and historic sites. After which we will
apologize, of course.”

It’s important to note that despite all of this, most of the people in
Estonia are still calm and there are no cases of violence from Estonian
community. The importance of situation is illustrated by fact that almost
2000 people by now in Estonia have applied to become a member of Police
Support Organization to protect the country from internal conflicts,
coordinated from abroad.

Soviet monuments not relocated, but demolished in Russia

As a curiosity, Russian overreaction is hypocritical because on very same
time, WW II monuments for Russian soldiers are demolished (not replaced)
in Russia itself. It has happened in Moscow satellite city Himki a few
weeks ago, also in Stavropoulos in southern region on last autumn.

So all in all – it’s symbolic war against Europe and another clear
evidence of former KGB agent Putin tactics to show the world that Russia
has not changed and need to show a power.

We hope that all people reading this information will make their move on
their home countries by demanding Russia stopping interfering immediately
to Estonian /EU internal affairs. Also passing this info to as many people
and media channels as you can, because Russian (population 150m people) TV
propaganda is exceeding Estonian (1,3m people) explanations.

]]> By: Thomas http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-2/#comment-1057952 Thomas Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:16:56 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-1057952 Someone actually know the beginning of the story I guess nooo. Lets see how it got started. Russians where celebrating/memorializing at the monument(most of them where old people, also some russian flags and symbols etc). A Estonian man came with Estonian flag to show the respect to the soldier(monument). Then all russians got aggressive against the Estonian flag and russians tried to take the flag from the estonian man with power(aggressively). It's great that the man is still alive thanks to the Estonian Police who helped him and also protect the flag of Estonia with the respect. there was no point to get to the monument, there where so many agressiv russians and so the man with the flag had no other chance to get into police car to protect him and Estonian flag. This was the first conflict. I know this because i am the nearest source for it. Actually some RU reporters interviewed some Estonians? Sorry for that maybe Russia can be democracy country in future, but the Ru media talks, like they are speaking about something else but not from the situation. The real thing is that Russians doesn't care the monument they just want to fight with Estonia. Most of the people who actually are making the mess in Tallinn really doesn't know anything about the monument. Most Estonians just think that this is LOL, but they really(Russians) starting to do so stupid things. I do not want to say that Russians are bad and Estonian are heavenly good, but i know that most of the people all over the world also included russians from russia doesn't know the all story. i know the monuments mess from the start and if you really don't know it 100% -ly do not act like it(russians). this is the first mess in Estonia(20years) noone in the world doesn't care about the monument, just the fight the opportunity to fight seems to be so important. Why so many Russians hate Estonians. We just can't take the russian language to our national language, our only national language is Estonia, you need to learn the language. Why England's or Germany's should take estonian language to theyre second language? Because there are some estonians? where is the meaning? Just Russia do not try to rule over Estonia because we never give up. I hope you all can understand the situation. Thank you, Thomas K. from Estonia (c) Someone actually know the beginning of the story I guess nooo. Lets see how it got started.

Russians where celebrating/memorializing at the monument(most of them where old people, also some russian flags and symbols etc). A Estonian man came with Estonian flag to show the respect to the soldier(monument). Then all russians got aggressive against the Estonian flag and russians tried to take the flag from the estonian man with power(aggressively). It’s great that the man is still alive thanks to the Estonian Police who helped him and also protect the flag of Estonia with the respect. there was no point to get to the monument, there where so many agressiv russians and so the man with the flag had no other chance to get into police car to protect him and Estonian flag.

This was the first conflict.

I know this because i am the nearest source for it. Actually some RU reporters interviewed some Estonians? Sorry for that maybe Russia can be democracy country in future, but the Ru media talks, like they are speaking about something else but not from the situation.

The real thing is that Russians doesn’t care the monument they just want to fight with Estonia. Most of the people who actually are making the mess in Tallinn really doesn’t know anything about the monument.

Most Estonians just think that this is LOL, but they really(Russians) starting to do so stupid things.

I do not want to say that Russians are bad and Estonian are heavenly good, but i know that most of the people all over the world also included russians from russia doesn’t know the all story.

i know the monuments mess from the start and if you really don’t know it 100% -ly do not act like it(russians).
this is the first mess in Estonia(20years)

noone in the world doesn’t care about the monument, just the fight the opportunity to fight seems to be so important. Why so many Russians hate Estonians. We just can’t take the russian language to our national language, our only national language is Estonia, you need to learn the language. Why England’s or Germany’s should take estonian language to theyre second language? Because there are some estonians? where is the meaning?

Just Russia do not try to rule over Estonia because we never give up.

I hope you all can understand the situation.

Thank you,

Thomas K. from Estonia (c)

]]> By: Angel http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-2/#comment-1046471 Angel Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:27:15 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-1046471 The statue was removed so it could be relocated and set up as fast as possible - so the veterans could celebrate the 9th of May going to the monument they are used to. The poll was carried out by a firm that asked people of merely over a thousand. It does not show the will of all the people in Tallinn. Actually, this monument was not problematic before the actions which took place last year. It is a wrong place to honour the dead and it has been constantly pointed out. Now they took action. The timing might of been wrong - but why doesn't anyone of the so-called "Russian" side (some of them are Estonian citizens, thus, Estonians) think of the high risk of getting that monument blown up by some idiotic Estonian ultra-nationalist? It was a great hazard, and the government couldn't risk getting the entire place blown up. I have to agree with the president - those who participate in the marauding have nothing to do with honouring the dead but are simple criminals that have to be punished, despite the nationality. Russia was offered the monument and the remains. Russia was offered to participate in the excavations and have their own participant here. Russia declined. The statue was removed so it could be relocated and set up as fast as possible – so the veterans could celebrate the 9th of May going to the monument they are used to.
The poll was carried out by a firm that asked people of merely over a thousand. It does not show the will of all the people in Tallinn. Actually, this monument was not problematic before the actions which took place last year. It is a wrong place to honour the dead and it has been constantly pointed out. Now they took action. The timing might of been wrong – but why doesn’t anyone of the so-called “Russian” side (some of them are Estonian citizens, thus, Estonians) think of the high risk of getting that monument blown up by some idiotic Estonian ultra-nationalist? It was a great hazard, and the government couldn’t risk getting the entire place blown up.
I have to agree with the president – those who participate in the marauding have nothing to do with honouring the dead but are simple criminals that have to be punished, despite the nationality.
Russia was offered the monument and the remains. Russia was offered to participate in the excavations and have their own participant here. Russia declined.

]]> By: from_russia_with_love http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-1/#comment-1045429 from_russia_with_love Sat, 28 Apr 2007 06:08:06 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-1045429 Why would estonia remove the bronze statue in secrecy? If this was the peoples will, then everyone would support it, there would not have been any clashes, also the russians are mostly upset because of the timing the estonian goverment decided to remove the statue and burial site, they could have done it 6 months ago or 6 months from now, but not a few days from victory day may 9th. I belive this is all politically motivated, and in the end its the people that will suffer. But i do agree, estonia has the right to do as it wishes in it's own country, but 300,000 russians living in estonia should mean something to the goverment and that should be taken in to account! Why would estonia remove the bronze statue in secrecy? If this was the peoples will, then everyone would support it, there would not have been any clashes, also the russians are mostly upset because of the timing the estonian goverment decided to remove the statue and burial site, they could have done it 6 months ago or 6 months from now, but not a few days from victory day may 9th. I belive this is all politically motivated, and in the end its the people that will suffer. But i do agree, estonia has the right to do as it wishes in it’s own country, but 300,000 russians living in estonia should mean something to the goverment and that should be taken in to account!

]]> By: Keijo http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-1/#comment-1042475 Keijo Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:44:50 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-1042475 I have not seen UN nor NATO threatening Estonia with war. I have not seen UN nor NATO killing innocent Estonians nor deporting them to Siberia. I have not seen them attempting to destroy our culture, our language, our land. I have not seen UN nor NATO soldiers pillaging Estonian villages and raping our people. Russians have done all that. We have done everything to help ethnic Russians integrate into our society. We have integration programs, language learning programs, etc. We have Russian newspapers, Russian schools... What else do you want? The result - many of these ethnic Russians have not learned even one single Estonian word during almost two decades! They still think that they live in Soviet Union. All these accusations in human right violations come from nothing else than such simple things that we, INDEPENDENT country, demand that people who want to get our citizenship or apply for a job in public services etc must meet certain requirements as for example being able to speak Estonian. What's so extraordinary in these requirements? Russians who think they live in Soviet Union demand that we must communicate with them in Russian. We, independent free nation with our own language and culture in our own motherland must communicate in foreign language? Bronzeman symbolises the Soviet occupation. These were not liberators, these were the next occupants. During last years, every year old communists and supporters of Soviet Union were holding their meetings near Bronzeman, waving Soviet flags and shouting anti-Estonian slogans. How long did you expect we will tolerate that? And yet nobody wanted to destroy Bronzeman. It was to be removed to military graveyard (and it will set up there soon). Center of city is not place for graves. So what exactly is your problem, Russians? I have not seen UN nor NATO threatening Estonia with war. I have not seen UN nor NATO killing innocent Estonians nor deporting them to Siberia. I have not seen them attempting to destroy our culture, our language, our land. I have not seen UN nor NATO soldiers pillaging Estonian villages and raping our people.

Russians have done all that.

We have done everything to help ethnic Russians integrate into our society. We have integration programs, language learning programs, etc. We have Russian newspapers, Russian schools… What else do you want? The result – many of these ethnic Russians have not learned even one single Estonian word during almost two decades! They still think that they live in Soviet Union.

All these accusations in human right violations come from nothing else than such simple things that we, INDEPENDENT country, demand that people who want to get our citizenship or apply for a job in public services etc must meet certain requirements as for example being able to speak Estonian. What’s so extraordinary in these requirements? Russians who think they live in Soviet Union demand that we must communicate with them in Russian. We, independent free nation with our own language and culture in our own motherland must communicate in foreign language?

Bronzeman symbolises the Soviet occupation. These were not liberators, these were the next occupants. During last years, every year old communists and supporters of Soviet Union were holding their meetings near Bronzeman, waving Soviet flags and shouting anti-Estonian slogans. How long did you expect we will tolerate that?

And yet nobody wanted to destroy Bronzeman. It was to be removed to military graveyard (and it will set up there soon). Center of city is not place for graves. So what exactly is your problem, Russians?

]]> By: Angel http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-1/#comment-1041669 Angel Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:45:50 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-1041669 We are kissing the ass of Americans now? Oh no no!! It's is lot useful to do so with Russians. And sure, we are the only ones doing so. What hypocrites we are. Shame on us. There wasn't a so-called occupation? It was an occupation. What else do you call it? Do I have to start describing everything in greater detail - what the daily life looked like in Estonia during the year 1956? Or what my grandfather happened to go through in Gulag? Or why my greatgreandparents got shot? Or why their neighbours and their neighbours and their neighbours were sent off to Siberia? Do I have to remind you why no such thing as the opposition existed in the Soviet Union? It is still the same principal - if you weren't/aren't a communist - then you are something they call a fascist - they don't use the term about just one group of people but as a general term about everyone - who, in their eyes, are enemies. Including you. For your information (that you actually seem to lack of) - the monument was just 15 ms away from the bus-stop, on a busy cross-roads. But yes, seemingly as it is the best place for people to be buried. The Tallinns goverment has constantly ignored that fact. Until it went into the court and became the matter of the Estonian government. Not Russian. Or anyone else. They just do like to make a huge fuss of it. Especially when they need a new enemy - as they are in too good relationships with the States right now, they need something more convenient to take the eyes of the world away from their internal affairs. Have you got any idea what is going on in Russia? The free media has been eliminated - maybe you have heard about the deaths of those newspaper reporters? Not just one. There isn't even an exact account. This just makes me wonder WHY were the monuments dedicated to the men who fought for independence of Estonia destroyed during the Soviet occupation. Shall I remind you - it happened in 1918, when the world didn't even know Hitler? Or shall I go through once again about the facts that if you weren't with them, you were against them and thus, belonged to destroying. No such thing as individual rights existed. A human life was worthless. Still is. I've done my homework. We are kissing the ass of Americans now? Oh no no!! It’s is lot useful to do so with Russians. And sure, we are the only ones doing so. What hypocrites we are. Shame on us.
There wasn’t a so-called occupation? It was an occupation. What else do you call it? Do I have to start describing everything in greater detail – what the daily life looked like in Estonia during the year 1956? Or what my grandfather happened to go through in Gulag? Or why my greatgreandparents got shot? Or why their neighbours and their neighbours and their neighbours were sent off to Siberia? Do I have to remind you why no such thing as the opposition existed in the Soviet Union?
It is still the same principal – if you weren’t/aren’t a communist – then you are something they call a fascist – they don’t use the term about just one group of people but as a general term about everyone – who, in their eyes, are enemies. Including you.
For your information (that you actually seem to lack of) – the monument was just 15 ms away from the bus-stop, on a busy cross-roads. But yes, seemingly as it is the best place for people to be buried. The Tallinns goverment has constantly ignored that fact. Until it went into the court and became the matter of the Estonian government. Not Russian. Or anyone else.
They just do like to make a huge fuss of it. Especially when they need a new enemy – as they are in too good relationships with the States right now, they need something more convenient to take the eyes of the world away from their internal affairs. Have you got any idea what is going on in Russia? The free media has been eliminated – maybe you have heard about the deaths of those newspaper reporters? Not just one. There isn’t even an exact account.
This just makes me wonder WHY were the monuments dedicated to the men who fought for independence of Estonia destroyed during the Soviet occupation. Shall I remind you – it happened in 1918, when the world didn’t even know Hitler? Or shall I go through once again about the facts that if you weren’t with them, you were against them and thus, belonged to destroying. No such thing as individual rights existed. A human life was worthless. Still is.
I’ve done my homework.

]]> By: David Montgomery http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-1/#comment-1040524 David Montgomery Fri, 27 Apr 2007 04:29:42 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-1040524 Western countries will always find violation of human rights in Russia even in case if they do the same in their own countries. Implementation of democracy by the US is a bullshit invented just for spreading their interests around the world. So, Estonia is just one example of that. It is like a prostitute because initially, as you said, there was a Russian so called occupation. Now you have a NATO occupation and you will always have someone who will occupy you. Because Estonia is nothing. But what’s the difference between the Russian occupation and the US occupation? The US does not do anything just for nothing. Think about that. I see that brainwashing policy works well in Estonia now artificially creating a threat which is Russia because there is nothing to do for the government. This method is used everywhere in the world. Now it works well in Georgia where the economy is dying but to maintain the popularity the government created a fascist atmosphere. Same in Estonia. It’s a fascism to destroy the war monuments. Even Germany has them and maintains them. It’s a pity the Russians died in your country. I wished you to live under German occupation with Hitler in place up to now, in that case you will kiss the ass of the Russians to liberate you. Also, it’s a human nature to forget good things and remember not good. Now you are talking about Russian occupation and kiss the ass of the Americans. Tomorrow, when you are fed up with them, you will kiss someone else’s ass to get rid of the Americans. So, do you homework mates. Western countries will always find violation of human rights in Russia even in case if they do the same in their own countries. Implementation of democracy by the US is a bullshit invented just for spreading their interests around the world.
So, Estonia is just one example of that. It is like a prostitute because initially, as you said, there was a Russian so called occupation. Now you have a NATO occupation and you will always have someone who will occupy you. Because Estonia is nothing. But what’s the difference between the Russian occupation and the US occupation? The US does not do anything just for nothing. Think about that. I see that brainwashing policy works well in Estonia now artificially creating a threat which is Russia because there is nothing to do for the government. This method is used everywhere in the world. Now it works well in Georgia where the economy is dying but to maintain the popularity the government created a fascist atmosphere. Same in Estonia.
It’s a fascism to destroy the war monuments. Even Germany has them and maintains them. It’s a pity the Russians died in your country. I wished you to live under German occupation with Hitler in place up to now, in that case you will kiss the ass of the Russians to liberate you.
Also, it’s a human nature to forget good things and remember not good. Now you are talking about Russian occupation and kiss the ass of the Americans. Tomorrow, when you are fed up with them, you will kiss someone else’s ass to get rid of the Americans.
So, do you homework mates.

]]> By: Angel http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-1/#comment-1039702 Angel Thu, 26 Apr 2007 22:11:17 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-1039702 As a reply to the previous post - I would highly recommend the person to set his facts straight. I am forgetting that the Russians freed us from what? Fascism? Well - apparently your homework has been done VERY poorly. The German forces left Estonia days before the Communist Russian forces even crossed the border. The new goverment of the Estonian REPUBLIC was being formed (I'd like you to read it again - yes, a democratic goverment, just like in your country, that is so very fascists free). So, thanks a lot for "freeing" us, instead of leaving us to form our own goverment. Thank you for repressing Estonians by sending off half the nation to Siberia whereas the other half was shot, tormented and brainwashed. You wanted Estonians to choose between occupations? Here's a newsflash - neither occupation was desireable, to any degree! Both were outright evil. Clearly, you're utterly oblivious as to what kinds of crimes the Soviet Union has commited -- The victims outnumber those who died during the Hitler's power. It is obvious that you haven't even sniffed the air of the communism, what it REALLY was about. Thus, I would highly recommend you to think before you post anything like this again. If you don't know what it was like, there's no point in playing know-it-all and embarrassing yourself with comments which are only indicative to a very profound lack of knowledge on the topic at hand. As a reply to the previous post – I would highly recommend the person to set his facts straight.
I am forgetting that the Russians freed us from what? Fascism? Well – apparently your homework has been done VERY poorly.
The German forces left Estonia days before the Communist Russian forces even crossed the border. The new goverment of the Estonian REPUBLIC was being formed (I’d like you to read it again – yes, a democratic goverment, just like in your country, that is so very fascists free). So, thanks a lot for “freeing” us, instead of leaving us to form our own goverment.
Thank you for repressing Estonians by sending off half the nation to Siberia whereas the other half was shot, tormented and brainwashed.
You wanted Estonians to choose between occupations? Here’s a newsflash – neither occupation was desireable, to any degree! Both were outright evil. Clearly, you’re utterly oblivious as to what kinds of crimes the Soviet Union has commited — The victims outnumber those who died during the Hitler’s power.
It is obvious that you haven’t even sniffed the air of the communism, what it REALLY was about. Thus, I would highly recommend you to think before you post anything like this again. If you don’t know what it was like, there’s no point in playing know-it-all and embarrassing yourself with comments which are only indicative to a very profound lack of knowledge on the topic at hand.

]]> By: Keijo http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-1/#comment-1039439 Keijo Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:50:54 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-1039439 What kind of human rights Estonia violates? Can you bring any examples? Why international human rights organisations do not find any violations in Estionia? The only one who is whining about human rights violated in Estonia is - SURPRISE! - Russia who has still not accepted the idea that Estonia is not under Soviet occupation any more but independent country. And at the same time Russia is known everywhere in the world as the violator of human rights. Funny - if it is so bad here and human rights violated so badly, how comes nobody is trying to escape from here? You can stop your idiotic Soviet propaganda because you will not succeed in fooling the world. The world sees what is going on in Estonia - ethnic Russians, supported by certain groups from Russia, promoting hatred and anti-Estionian slogans, vandalising in the city, threatening Estonia (independent country) with Russian invasion and war. But you will learn your lession the hard way. What kind of human rights Estonia violates? Can you bring any examples? Why international human rights organisations do not find any violations in Estionia? The only one who is whining about human rights violated in Estonia is – SURPRISE! – Russia who has still not accepted the idea that Estonia is not under Soviet occupation any more but independent country.
And at the same time Russia is known everywhere in the world as the violator of human rights.

Funny – if it is so bad here and human rights violated so badly, how comes nobody is trying to escape from here?

You can stop your idiotic Soviet propaganda because you will not succeed in fooling the world. The world sees what is going on in Estonia – ethnic Russians, supported by certain groups from Russia, promoting hatred and anti-Estionian slogans, vandalising in the city, threatening Estonia (independent country) with Russian invasion and war.

But you will learn your lession the hard way.

]]> By: John http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-1/#comment-1032799 John Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:24:45 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-1032799 In Estonia there is i fascist regime now despite the fact they are in European Union. Estonia violates the human right in trems if citizenship. And this example with the monument proves that Estonian authorities still excersize the possibility to make a little pain to Russia without understanding that Russia is big and Estonia is nothing. Also, Estonia forgot that the Russians liberated it from fascism and a lot of Russian soldiers had lost their lives. It's a shame for Estonia to do that and even living in Australia people know that. Unfortunately, the history can not go back. I would like those soldiers to be alive and Estonia to be under that German occupation with Hitler in power. In that case they would understand what is better. In Estonia there is i fascist regime now despite the fact they are in European Union. Estonia violates the human right in trems if citizenship. And this example with the monument proves that Estonian authorities still excersize the possibility to make a little pain to Russia without understanding that Russia is big and Estonia is nothing. Also, Estonia forgot that the Russians liberated it from fascism and a lot of Russian soldiers had lost their lives. It’s a shame for Estonia to do that and even living in Australia people know that. Unfortunately, the history can not go back. I would like those soldiers to be alive and Estonia to be under that German occupation with Hitler in power. In that case they would understand what is better.

]]> By: Maris http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/comment-page-1/#comment-629457 Maris Mon, 22 Jan 2007 16:33:04 +0000 http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/2007/01/19/russia-estonia-the-monument/#comment-629457 So Vladimir Pozner in his regular discussion program claimed that the Soviet soldiers commemorated by the monument were dying for the freedom of Estonia. Tell that to the Estonians. So Vladimir Pozner in his regular discussion program claimed that the Soviet soldiers commemorated by the monument were dying for the freedom of Estonia. Tell that to the Estonians.

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